this post was submitted on 15 Jan 2025

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369

[Gamers Nexus] Investigation: GamersNexus Files New Lawsuit Against PayPal & Honey (youtu.be)

submitted 1 week ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 127 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

LegalEagle and Wendover Productions actually beat them to the punch (Nebula) on this. They filed on 29th December 2024, a whole 4 days earlier.

And since the US courts charge money to get these documents, I downloaded a copy of the complaint earlier on my PACER account so anyone who's interested can read it without incurring the stupid fees. Enjoy

Edit: Devin Stone (the host of LegalEagle) is actually a lawyer on this case. His name and his law firm are listed as a lawyer for the plaintiff on the complaint.

[–] [email protected] 46 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

In GN's video the law firm mentioned there are 3-4 cases already and they are probably getting combined or go to the same judge. (IANAL; IDK the specifics)

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Precisely.

Tthey said that they started work on it and by the time they submitted it, they found out that others had already done the same (of course they wouldn't have known this when they started the legwork), but that ultimately that doesn't matter because if it goes class-action – which is their desired path of action – the cases will be combined anyway.

If anything it's beneficial that multiple people took this up, it should make class-action more likely.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago

Exactly. It takes weeks and perhaps longer to put together a case, so the fact that they're within a few days of each other is pretty remarkable and implies they have a pretty good case. Hopefully they can combine notes and really take Honey to the cleaners.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (4 children)

Jesus, spelling mistake in the first sentence of the complaint. Fire the legal aide.

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[–] [email protected] 74 points 1 week ago (19 children)

At this rate Steve is going to end up offed or cancelled in some kind of way, he keeps digging deeper.

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[–] [email protected] 56 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

If you haven't seen it yet, check out this investigation on Honey (20 minutes, Part 1):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vc4yL3YTwWk

It's fascinating stuff. Open fraud.

I can't speak for formal legal matters (I am assuming such scams are nominally legal in the US), but it goes to show that senior PayPal executives are basically criminals. There is no way they didn't know about this.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I mean, Paypal is a bank that isn't beholden to all the normal bank regulations and customer protection rules due to technicalities. They have been caught effectively seizing customer funds through locking accounts for questionable reasons before, and offer no reasonable way of recovering funds from locked accounts. Numerous stories of people operating online etsy (and similar) storefronts getting accounts locked for vague claims they were actively money laundering, with no means for appeal.

Anyone just now becoming aware of the paypal execs' corruption hasn't been paying attention.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago (1 children)

There's a reason that a set of grifters who ran the place is nicknamed "The Paypal Mafia".

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

LTT fans are in complete meltdown over big mean steve pointing out that Linus seemingly discovered this and stayed completely quiet about it.

Linus seems to had a big hissy fit about the whole subject of Honey on his WAN show, too.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 week ago (1 children)

WAN show is like 33% Linus whining about any actual or perceived slight against him for like over a year now. It's getting so annoying.

I tend to agree that they should have spoken up. Even if just for the damn clicks and views.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

If you're no longer doing business with them, why not be vocal about why? If there's a legitimate reason, it tells other partners where your line is so they know whether you're a good fit for them. Don't bad mouth them, but explain the facts and encourage viewers and other YouTubers to avoid them for the stated reasons.

I honestly don't see what's wrong with that. Steve from GN has done much worse and still gets sponsors, so it really can't be that.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

But they did state the reasons, on their forums. At the time it was only known Honey steals money from affiliate link owners, not from users, and presumably it worked correctly for users.

So what do you think would happen if they encouraged viewers not to use it? "Hey we know this extension makes you money, but please don't use it because we, millionaire YouTubers, are getting smaller profits when your do, and our profits are more important than your savings". They checked with other creators, most of YouTube stopped promoting it at the time, and that was it. It would be seen as very self-serving to complain about it to users/viewers.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

It turns out, people care about supporting channels they watch a lot. In fact, I go out of my way to use affiliate links if they helped me decide with their review.

All they need to say is "Honey strips our affiliate links, so I'd appreciate if you don't use that extension," and provide some evidence. It doesn't even need a full video, maybe use it as a segway into a sponsor that does honor referal URLs.

If users know Honey is messing with URLs for their own benefit, maybe they'll look for an alternative.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

I mean, the information was published. People could have shared it more if they cared. Most users don't. Just look at the backlash he got for comparing ad block's impact to that of piracy. I still see people citing that as a reason not to trust LMG. If people are that offended by being asked to consider the effects they have on creator income, you really think they'd react well to being told their discounts are hurting creators. They're already seen as whiney, pro-corporate shills. They're not going to go out of their way to shout from the rooftops criticism for a company that helps consumers (or was thought to at the time).

Edit: to be clear, I'm not a fan of LTT, but if you're going to criticize them, do it for their bias, factual errors, personality, ect. Not because they didn't go far enough to discourage using coupon codes.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago

Just look at the backlash he got for comparing ad block’s impact to that of piracy.

Well yeah, because he's objectively wrong, yet doubled and (I think) tripled down on it.

What he meant was that blocking ads eliminates his revenue (which is bad), but it's not piracy by any definition I've ever heard of.

That said, I don't think it has anything to do with how trustworthy LMG is, there are plenty of other reasons to have concerns about that (GN made a video about that). I watch them occasionally as entertainment, but rarely for actual information.

Not because they didn’t go far enough to discourage using coupon codes.

I'm not arguing that they should discourage people from using coupons, I'm arguing they should have explained why Honey is problematic and why they're no longer taking their sponsorships. There should be no call to action, merely information that Honey isn't great. Users can then consider other sources for coupons that may be more friendly for affiliate links, or not, the information is merely why they're no longer working w/ Honey as a sponsor.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Linus posted about it on the forum, and everything he said on the WAN show is correct if you actually watch the full clip instead of what GN edited it to say

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

While I think Linus can be way too whiny at times. I think he handled the situation well if everything stated is true. He made it clear on his forum that they terminated the partnership/sponsorship. He could have made a 'more public statement (e.g., a video on ltt)' but as he stated, viewers probably would have raked him over the coals for doing so. It likely would have been perceived as 'oh no! Honey stole money from me but gave you a discount. Woe is me.'

He still is too whiny as of the last few years but as a small business (very small; ~20 employees) owner myself, I kind of get it. I go out of my way to try to give my employees the best possible experience but sometimes people think I'm just taking advantage of them (despite me paying my full-time employees 1.5x my pre-tax take home rate). So I kind of get why he acts that way at times. Now, I don't condone it, but I understand.

Edit I love what Steve from GN is doing. I reported the honey extension when this news initially came out. I have supported all his pro consumer reports/actions.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 week ago (9 children)

I am genuinely concerned about this because Legal Eagle’s suit is directly tied to manipulating URLs and cookies. The suit, even with its focus on last click attribution, doesn’t make an incredibly specific argument. If Legal Eagle wins, this sets a very dangerous precedent for ad blockers being illegal because ad blockers directly manipulate cookies and URLs. I haven’t read the Gamer’s Nexus one yet.

Please note that I’m not trying to defend Honey at all. They’re actively misleading folks.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 week ago (4 children)

That's like saying bank robberies being illegal mean that going to the bank is illegal.

Honey is unlawful because of what they DO by changing those URLs and cookies, e.g enriching themselves at the expense of creators.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 week ago (5 children)

It could never apply to ad blockers. You install an ad blocker knowing that it will block stuff... and explicitly WANTING it to do so.

Nobody installed honey knowing that it was manipulating cookies and stuff. The normal layperson who installs it will just think "It's just chucking in coupon codes into that box!"...

One is predicated on a lie of omission... the other is literally what the user wants. There's a huge difference...

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago

It could never apply to ad blockers.

I mean it certainly could if it was deemed so broad as "Honey was manipulating affiliate links", but I don't think it would.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 week ago (1 children)

But adblockers don't enable unlawful enrichment. Or do they?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Only paid ones. Theoretically could impact Brave, for instance.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I understand why you would think that, but this is not the case. Not a lawyer though, not legal advice.

There are 2 main types of causes of action for this, let's go over them:

Conversion, unjust enrichment: Here, Legal eagle and other creators allege Honey took money that was supposed to go to them. Basically just theft. This does not apply to adblock, since they don't take the money.
Tortious interference: Here they claim, that by removing the tracking cookie, they unlawfully interfere with the business relationship between the affiliates and the shopping platform. This could maybe apply to ad-blockers, but it is almost certainly superseded by the user explicitly wanting to remove tracking cookies, and the user has the right to do so. Saying that it is unlawful interference is like saying a builder hired by a land owner to build a fence is interfering with truckers who were using the land as a shortcut. They had no legal right to pass through the land in the first place. So the owner can commission a fence and a builder can build it. A contract between the truckers and amazon would not matter. In case of honey, it is like the builder was not hired by the owner and just built the fence to spite the truckers without owners permission.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago

I think it'll be okay, Honey was actually making money from the manipulation without user knowlage.

Adblocks don't make money and users are (should be) aware that tracking links and stuff gets removed.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 week ago

Tech Jesus strikes again!

Prepare for his cumming

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 week ago

Shit’s getting real in Honey’s legal department.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago

In a short 10-15 years we will see a resolution to this case and be able to have closure. A blink of a eye.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I read that as “law slut”

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago

18 U.S. Code § 351 always gets me going

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago

Netscape is suing PayPal?

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