One of the Costco locations in Albuquerque has a solar covered parking lot. Inside they have a meter showing how much of their used electricity is from the solar.
this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2024
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Installing and maintaining solar panels costs a lot. Perhaps the businesses found that not profitable.
In Hong Kong, we have a "install solar panels on your roof" project, and the electricity company buys the power you generate at approx. 5x market price. It sounds great at first, but people quickly realized installation and maintenance cost so much, you can only get back what you paid for after 10 years.
This may not be relevant to the discussion because we are talking about big space, and HK houses are small area-wise.
you can only get back what you paid for after 10 years.
Another way to look at it: It used to be 20-25 years, so 10 is probably the best it's ever been for ROI.
It's better, but not good enough for people to consider it
Emphasis on the 5x selling price too. Imagine they buy at market price
Interesting. In switzerland if you sell your solar power to the power company you get between 0.03-0.10 francs per kw/h while electricity costs between 0.25-0.40 francs. The calculated ROI is still 10-15 years for most people though
And many Cantons offer to subsidize part of the installation. With increasing energy prices I bet those ROI are going end up better than initially projected.
Another way to look at it: It used to be 20-25 years, so 10 is probably the best it’s ever been for ROI.
Depending on the State power prices and tax incentives/rebates and your power consumption there are those that are getting 6-8 year ROI.
Isn't 10 years around the expected lifetime of a panel?
They're usually rated 20-25, but I think I read recently that some are still producing useful power after that.
Read an article on an early adopter that had over 30 year panels. They reported it was still producing around 70% of its original rated power.
That sounds like the one I'm recalling.
Solar panels are considered "end of life" when they only produce 70-80% of their rated power.
Most panels now seem to have a warranty lasting 25 years, guaranteeing that they will still be producing x% of their original capacity at that time, such as 92% or 88%. Generally a higher guaranteed percentage will cost more than a lower guaranteed percentage with the same starting output. After that time they will continue producing electricity but their output may drop faster. Someone might decide to replace them even though they’re still producing if the output seems too low.
Most batteries seem to only come with 10 year warranties, though, and DC to AC inverters might only have a 10 year warranty.
10 year payback period sounds great if you're staying there long term
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Making the panels high enough off the ground with sparse enough supports to be convenient adds a lot of expense. I mainly see it in paid parking lots where the shade can be sold as a value add.
The supports also need to withstand being rammed by drunks in dodge rams.
I think Target and McDonald's have figured out the solution to that: surround the supports with concrete pillars.
Bollards is the word for that.
You underestimate the power of the Dodge Ram
That ain't a bollard, them giant concrete balls outside of target, now thems are bollards
Maybe if they are moveable, they can dodge the ramming.
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There’s an rei that does it near me, and it looks like they also save money on plowing in the winter. The spots don’t really get snow because of the cover, and the aisles are generally passable because traffic
Basically solar panels need structural support.
To cover a parking lot, you must build the supports from scratch. To cover an existing rooftop, the structure’s already there.
It’s slightly more complicated but that’s the basic reason.
Supports are nothing compared to the electrical infrastructure needed to actually use the solar power. Adding solar to a commercial 3 phase switchgear is a massive headache.
in places that have large open lot retail developments, it’s very likely you could just install the solar panels on undeveloped land a few miles away.
why would you complicate both efforts by trying to intertwine them?
Or if you do them on site, there's a roof on the store that you can use first, without needing to do construction work. Covering the parking spaces requires some measure of construction work, underground electrical work, etc that could end up being pretty expensive compared to alternatives.
That assumes the buildings can handle them. A company I used to work for was planning to put solar on pretty much all of their buildings. Until they found out most of their buildings couldn’t handle the weight without significant (expensive) reinforcing. Many of their installations ended up on the ground instead.
I've seen a few parking lots by where I live that have solar panels which make great shade. Also a mobile home park that has panels over the mobile homes to keep them cool
That's some really expensive shade to install.
I wish, we could at least make parking lots not pitch-black. They absorb so much heat in the sun, which makes them unpleasant to walk across and of course adds to cities being overly hot in general.
Two local shops here have their parking lots out of light gray paving stones, which is so much nicer. I'm guessing, they got forced to pave, so that rain water can drain, which is of course also quite a good idea...
Having large parking lots at all in the first place is already Doing It Wrong, so IDGAF if there are solar panels on top of them. They'd just be one more thing to bulldoze in order to rebuild the place properly.
What we need are solar panels on the roofs of mixed-use mid-rise buildings in walkable areas.
how are you gonna sell more cars that way? petroleum doesn't buy itself, you know
I believe, this is because it's not yet a business model (nor a legal requirement). The first questions is, who even owns the lot and who has to power to make changes? Then, who gets to use the power output? Do you use it on-site or feed to grid? Do the local utility work with you or against you? (Hint: You are competitors now and running a grid is not free.)
That's just speculation, why solar-covered parking lots are not yet build much. The idea totally makes sense. It will probably take a either a startup company that figures out how and sells the solutions to the owners or a local government pushing for more solar.
To those saying, it's cheaper to build on a roof. Maybe, then do the roof, first, if it's feasible. Is it cheaper to build on undeveloped land or farm land? Maybe, if you live in the middle of nowhere or drive a significant distance to do your shopping. Still, plenty of opportunity to build over parking lots.
I've seen other discussions come to the conclusion that rooftop solar on a warehouse size building would be more expensive than the whole infrastructure of parking lot shades. They said that the entire structure would need reinforcement. Not a problem on new buildings, they can be designed to take the extra weight from the start
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There are some parking lots like that around here, though not many. Obviously expense is a large part of it. Photovoltaics get cheaper all the time, but there is all the other gear (inverters, transmission lines), plus the construction costs. Web search for solar parking lot or solar canopy finds a fair amount of data.
I do think solar off-grid is now economically feasible for a modest home. It's easier for a DIY homeowner than for a commercial operator to control costs by scrounging.
Wouldn't all of those costs be offset by the power generated? At least, the solar power would reduce the stores' draw from the grid. At most (depending on the size of the parking lot) the store would feed the grid on sunny days.
It seems to me that investing in the panel canopies, controllers, and modified grid connection would soon pay for itself and then fund the installation of the same for the next store.
You have to do the math. That solar canopy ends up costing around $5 per watt to install, apparently. WIth 0.3 solar constant (counting some other factors) that's 2.6 KWH/year per watt of solar, maybe 30 cents at industrial rates. So 15-ish years to pay off. Of course you can change the parameters around and do the math differently. Also hmm, 5% interest on the $5 is $.25 so that kills most of the 30 cents you get back in electricity. Scale this up to a 1 megawatt ($5 million) array for a Walmart sized parking lot and it's not so attractive. It was better a few years ago when interest rates were near zero.
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If there was truly money to be made, people would be making it. Never underestimate the dedication of opportunists.
So if it's not happening, it's because the dollars aren't there.
Second question should be, why aren't the dollars there? Is it artificial limitations, like laws about power generation? Is it the cost of the supplies only? We understand that, we can fix the problem.
They wouldn't even have to sell it. Just make it available for EV charging, let customers swipe their card when they park, and top up while they shop.
I don't know if that's any less costly than selling the power to the grid, but it might help recoup the costs quicker.
I think it's because, "drill baby, drill!" attitudes.
Pretty popular in Phoenix
Along with the points already made, selling energy back to the grid further complicates things. Selling energy as a non-utility is not allowed or practically worthless in a lot of states. So it's really only valuable to the commercial space that can use it. Couple that with retail space like stip malls that rent their locations and there's little incentive for the property owner to provide solar energy to the renter.
In Central Orange County, CA solar commonly seen covering parking at schools, transit hubs and government buildings. Less common on commercial lots but there are some. As renewable generation is helpful in attaining Leed certification it will become more common everywhere solar is practical.
It’s happened in some places. The local high school and train station parking lots where I live have them.
My grocery store has some. I don't know if it's actually economical for them in terms of power, but the shade for the car is nice.
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