this post was submitted on 10 Feb 2024
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Judaism is a closed religion, lighting candles for Hanukkah is one thing and that's cool if you want to partake in some fun. Saying prayers over those candles is markedly different and definitely appropriation.
I wouldn't call it appropriation. Appropriation would be claiming those weren't Jewish prayers or a menorah, they were Christian (or whatever).
A non-Jew saying Hebrew prayers doesn't offend me. My non-Jewish wife has done it before because she got a masters in folklore and wanted to take part. She didn't claim it as her own, she just took part in the ceremony. And plenty of non-Jewish spouses of Jews have done the same thing.
Honestly, if you're curious and you want to take part in Jewish ceremonies, go for it. Judaism is not as closed as you think. If it was, you wouldn't have famous converts like Sammy Davis, Jr. and Isla Fisher (and Ivanka Trump, unfortunately). It's not a simple process like turning around three times and saying "I'm a Jew!" but it's not exactly a ridiculous challenge either.
A non Jew saying Jewish prayers is absolutely appropriation. There's a rather clear line of thinking surrounding this in the greater Jewish community especially amongst the rabbinical crowd, and the Messianics are a rather large part of it.
Rabbis aren't popes. They don't get to decide what is or is not offensive to Jews in general. Sure, very religious Jews might have a problem with it. And I could not care less what they think. Especially when they're the minority in the U.S.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism
Do you honestly think most Jews would have a big problem with my wife saying a blessing over the menorah when most of them don't even think you have to believe in a god? I guarantee you more Jews were offended by Bradley Cooper playing Leonard Bernstein with a prosthetic nose than they would be over a non-Jew saying a Hebrew prayer.
Rabbi's aren't Pope's and they're born to argue so when the vast majority of them clearly state that a non Jew saying Jewish prayers is contrary to the principles of the religion then I'm going to accept that as a religious decree.
So yea your non jewish wife saying the bracha is a problem. You're welcome to practice as you see fit, no one's going to pull your Jew card over it but that doesn't make it halacha/Kosher/ cool or any other version of acceptable.
Why do Rabbis get to declare what is cultural appropriation when only 15% of American Jews say Judaism is about religion?
It sounds like you are offended by it. I would love some evidence that the general Jewish population agrees with you.
Why do the people who devote their lives to studying the scriptures of the religion get to be the ones who decide what's acceptable within the religion and what's not?
Because they're literally the subject matter experts. It's also pretty damn clear in the tanach too. In order to perform the mitzvah you need to be Jewish.
I'm not offended by how you choose to practice your religion, I'm pointing out that what you're doing is absolutely cultural appropriation and off sides with the understood practice of the religion as a whole. You're the one who seems to be offended by being called out on this, and that's for you to come to grips with not me.
I like how you keep ignoring the fact that the vast majority of Jews clearly don't give a shit about what Rabbis think.
Basically you're saying that Rabbis get to decide what Jews consider to be cultural appropriation and Jews as a whole do not.
Which is nonsense.
There's like 3 dozen angles to why your shiksa wife and kids shouldn't be saying brachot. It's more of a fact based gish gallop than moving the goal posts.
And yes Rabbi's as the stewards of Judaism get to make the call what's authentically Jewish and what's not. That you're unaware of these basic tenets of your culture and heritage is pretty fucking weird.
As I said above, you're welcome to keep larp'ing as a Jewish family but you're just lying to yourself and others. You seem to be really offended by this fact, maybe seeking counsel from a rabbi would help you with your conflicted emotions.
Wow. Didn't take long for your bigotry to come out, did it?
That you think that's a bigoted term just reinforces your complete lack of understanding of your culture and the language that is at the root of it. Your wife and children are Gentiles, you're pretending they're Jewish. Shiksa is 100% the appropriate term, even if your parents used it derogatorily in your household.
Even if I'm insulting them with a bigoted term, based on this conversation it's fucking deserved LoL. People larp'ing as another religion as the lowest of the low.
I'm not pretending they're Jewish, that's a lie. I specifically said the opposite. And 'shiksa' is a bigoted word. You are a bigot and a liar.
You said they're performing the prayers. That's pretending to be something you're not, and it's gross.
Stop larp'ing and stop lying about being something you're not.
That's another lie.
I said she performed the prayer once. Because she's a folklorist. You also decided I have more than one child, which sure is news to me if it isn't a lie.
But hey, why not keep lying after you've told one lie, am I right? I'm pretty sure the god you foolishly believe in says lying is bad. It's somewhere in the Torah, right? Or did they take out Deuteronomy 19 and Leviticus 19?
Stop saying things that aren't true. Calling me a liar will not make the things you claim I said true. It also won't make you any less of a bigot.
You are still a bigot and still a liar and aren't even brave enough to admit it.
So she said the prayer. You admitted that. Case closed. You're just justifying your guilt now and it's pathetic.
That is not what you claimed. You claimed my wife and children [of which I have one, not plural] are performing prayers. That is all a lie.
My wife did it one time many years ago before my one and only child was born. There is no guilt. I feel guilty for nothing. You, however, should feel guilty for violating Jewish law by lying over and over again.
You are still a liar and a bigot.
But sure, prove you aren't a liar. Tell me about the other children I have. Go for it. Name them all.
You said she performed the prayers. I said that's offsides, you started making up bullshit about Rabbi's not being authority on the basis of the religion. Her doing that is absolutely cultural appropriation and no matter how many times you reply or try to change your story, nothing's going to change that.
You're clearly an ignorant Jew. That's fine, but FFS stop making shit up and stop larp'ing as a Jewish family when you're CLEARLY not.
No lies here, just Truth you're scared to face. Like I said before, go talk to a rabbi and get some guidance cuz you're more lost than anyone who wandered the desert.
Except when you said my wife and multiple children, which I don't have, regularly perform prayers.
All of that is a lie.
Calling me an ignorant Jew when you're blatantly violating Jewish law is not an especially good insult.
But if you insist it isn't a lie, you can provide evidence. Start by naming my multiple children. Go for it.
I'm basing my comments on yours, you're The one twisting your story as you go. You're now trying to project blame because you know you're helping your wife culturally appropriate a closed religion, and your ignorance of your religion isn't an excuse. Shanda.
Another lie. I never twisted my story. I never claimed to have multiple children. I never claimed my wife regularly said prayers. Those were things you lied about.
But feel free to prove me wrong. Link to where I said those two things. Go for it.
Dude, all you're doing is pivoting and moving the goal posts. It's fine, like I said above where you're trying to tap dance away your sins, no one's pulling your Jew card. Plenty of Jews are losers, you're in plentiful company. I'm done replying, I try to avoid trash in my day even when it continues to stick to my shoe.
You're done replying because you know you lied.
If you didn't lie, name my multiple children. It should be very easy for you to do.
Shanda, shiksa and goyisha are the family names you've adopted. Now scuttle off loser.
One post ago-
Let me guess- that also wasn't a lie, right?
Yes, our lies are not comparable however, and you are lying about who you are and who your family is. I'm going to continue to post this fact.
I can only imagine what other lies you tell your wife. Although she's also awful person faking being something she isn't, so you two are clearly a match made in hell.
Funny, I don't remember the Torah saying that some lies are okay and some lies aren't. So I guess you admit you violated biblical law. What would those rabbis you told me to talk to think?
Will, we've established it? You don't know anything about the Torah. It definitely breaks out the various types of lies and even someone is ignored as you has read about it at a Passover Seder.
But here you are exposing your ignorance along with your dishonesty while projecting all of your failures as an individual onto others.
And I know you'll respond because you're just that pathetic. Every response just gives me another opportunity to explain to you how pathetic you are you are. So please please keep responding and keep exposing yourself for exactly what you are.
Actually can you get your wife on here? She's gotta be smarter and more knowledgeable about being a Jew than you, she's the one saying the bracha anyways. I'm starting to wonder if she even exists. You're the type that had the girlfriend in Canada when you were in high school, aren't you?
Which type of lie is "lie about the number of children someone has and what their wife has done?"
Also, which type of lie is "I'm done responding to you" and then you keep responding?
Please show me where in the Torah those two lies are excused.
Because I showed you in the Torah where it says lies are forbidden. Shall I show you again? Believe it or not, I've read the Pentateuch and Haftorah cover to cover. I doubt you have. Sanctimonious religious people never actually read their religious texts.
It's not a lie, it's a Truth you're now unwilling to admit. You're the one who's lying about what you've previously admitted to. It's not sanctimonious to be disgusted by the likes of you. Your family is culturally appropriating Judaism and your inability to come to grips with that is why you can't keep your lies straight.
Easy solution here, stop larp'ing as a Jewish family.
Okay, if I'm not willing to admit the truth that I have multiple children, you can tell me their names.
We've done this dance, they're called Shanda shiksa and goyisha.
The Truth is you culturally appropriate Judaism and you're gross for doing it.
See, even with your insults it's a lie because, and I don't know why you haven't caught on to this yet since I've said it more than once- I don't have multiple children.
Sorry, your lie is still a lie.
Leviticus 19:11
Leviticus 19:17
Maybe you should read the Torah some time to know why you're violating it.
You shall not deal falsely with others.
If only you'd adhered to that before culturally appropriating Judaism.
Seeing as your wife is the one reads the Torah in your house, maybe she can explain your hypocrisy there.
You're not my kin, and your lying ass wouldn't be welcomed in the tribe.
0/2.... seriously, keep showing the world your ignorance. You've previously shown your ignorance wrt to the rabbinical stature in the community, now you're mistakenly quoting passages LMFAO. Go find a rabbi and get learned. Your ignorance is spiraling.
Sorry, that's also a lie. I have Jewish ancestors stretching back as far as we can trace (which would be the middle ages), both Ashkenazi and Sepharic (I bet you don't count Sephardic Jews as Jews either, right?) I had a bris. I had a bar mitzvah. Exactly what else is necessary to make me Jewish? Do please find me the passage in the Torah that shows I am not a Jew.
Otherwise, that is also a lie.
LMFAO, you think because you're a Jew you're kin of mine? Sheer arrogance and ignorance. Doesn't mean you're welcome, plenty of Jews end up exiled from their community for being pieces of shit. The kind who go around larp'ing as Jewish families fit that bill and your wife saying the prayers puts you firmly there.
You seem to misunderstand what constitutes a lie, which makes sense as you've been lying this entire thread and lying by appropriating Judaism and having your wife perform the mitzvot. Just top to bottom here.
Didn't you just say that I "wouldn't be welcome in the tribe?"
Hmm, yes you did.
Sounds like you were saying I wasn't a Jew.
Nope. I know exactly what a lie is. A lie is claiming I have multiple children when I only have one. A lie is claiming I said my wife regularly says prayers when I said no such thing. A lie is saying that I'm not a Jew and then pretending you never said that.
And the funny part is you forgot you already admitted you lied. You're so caught up in insulting me and berating me that you can't even remember what you said.
You can't even remember that I only have one child despite my saying it multiple times.
Seriously, do you have memory issues?
Also, you've violated so many Jewish laws at this point that I'm starting to doubt you are Jewish. I'm starting to think you learned a handful of Yiddish words and decided to troll a Jew.
That's what you're doing, isn't it?
I did enjoy your demand that my wife talk to you though. That was pretty funny.
You can be a Jew and not be welcomed, this is the point I'm making. With your behavior and clear disdain for the culture, you're a drain on the community and aren't welcome. Don't agree, have your kids and wife at shul on Saturday while you are called to the bimah. I'll gladly tune into the stream and have a nice laugh.
Your projection falls flat, you've proven yourself ignorant and dishonest.
I'd love to talk to your wife, she's an even bigger loser than you are directly appropriating a religion that she's not a part of. I'd have plenty to say to that sort of pos.