this post was submitted on 26 Nov 2023
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Arizona's solar-over-canal project will tackle its major drought issue::undefined

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[–] [email protected] 94 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Arizona and the entire South West don't have a drought problem. They have an aridification problem. While this canal project is a good move in general and we should have been doing it years ago, there is no solving the over-population of a desert. One look at Colorado River basin and its reservoirs is enough to know there is nothing we can do to fix it.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 9 months ago (2 children)

With any luck pretty soon they'll look at alfalfa farming in the desert too

[–] [email protected] 20 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Why the fuck are humans so stupid that we decided to grow one of the thirstiest crops in the fucking desert.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Because entrenched, and exceptionally wealthy interests. Reading about how about in CA there are tons of Colorado River fed foreign owned farms growing alfalfa to export to the middle east is the definition of capitalist success...the profit of a commodity has been made the most efficient; acquired cheaply for something otherwise impossible with international arbitrage as the medium.

Every time someone asks people in the southwest to take shorter showers show them this: https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2022/02/24/california-water/

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

We should probably update the dictionary so the word 'greed' is synonymous to dumb, stupid, ect. Cuz it sure seems that greedy people just have a super low IQ.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

They already do.

Also, all those new Intel wafer plants near Phoenix.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Yeah... but sometimes you've gotta accept that a band-aid is all you can do. While this doesn't fix the underlying problems, if it works it'll provide more water and low carbon energy, which is better than nothing.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

if it works it'll provide more water

Unfortunately they will just use even more then, so the "shortage" will be maintained.

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[–] [email protected] 69 points 9 months ago (2 children)

The economic viability of this solar-over-canal approach is a key aspect. The need to acquire additional land is eliminated by utilizing the existing canal infrastructure, making the project considerably more cost-effective than traditional solar farms. This cost efficiency is critical in ensuring the scalability and replicability of such projects on a larger scale.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 27 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Arizona is a mixed bag, but I guess everywhere kind of is. They hire that crazy sheriff, that election craziness, and paint their lawns, but then do stuff like this.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The influx of folks moving in from more expensive big city locations plus the general shift of young people rejecting conservative views even as they age is turning the state away from its traditionally republican voting tendencies as seen in recent elections.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It's nice to see it changing for the better, it's hard to parse from the outside looking in though. A lot of the old school r's still live there, ig.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago (2 children)

It do be like that (old ppl voting R). Plus for whatever reason they all want to be here before they die, so it's a big stubborn aged community.

Source: 🏡🏜

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Inflation adjusted... those canals cost $50 billion to construct and the project took decades. It would cost far more now, since getting access to the land rights would be a nightmare.

They're already not providing enough water, so if building more canals is your proposed solution then you needed to start construction 20 years ago.

Upgrading the canals can potentially double the amount of water they provide. It's far cheaper, and quicker, than building more canals.

Solar panels alone wouldn't get you to 2x efficiency but it'll help a lot, and unlike other upgrades it also provides ongoing revenue. It's an absolute no brainer to start with this and do other canal upgrades later, when every inch of the canals are already covered in panels.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Or...hear me out... People don't live in the damn desert and expect to have unlimited access to water.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago

Nobpdies expecting unlimited water access besides stupid farmers and stupid rich people. Phoenix for example has rather strict laws on population expansion because of this if memory serves me right. But the dumbfucks growing fucking alfalfa use our rather esoteric and outdated water laws, atleast here in California. Even rice would be better since the fields can serve triple as water foul refuge and fish spawning pools.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I said that was California that painted their lawns. I lived in Arizona for a couple years, and I don't even remember seeing lawns. But I lived in Tucson. Almost everyone had a xeriscaped yard.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago

Seattle does this but with plantings and rain gardens. Nice to see them using alternatives. I haven't been to Arizona in years, I just go by what I hear. You guys don't have that great of a reputation.

xeriscaped yard

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/how-xeriscaping-offers-a-water-efficient-environmentally-friendly-alternative-to-lawns

[–] [email protected] 18 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It's also a win win design. Shade from the panels reduces evaporation in the canals and the water helps cool the panels which improves their efficiency.

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[–] [email protected] 48 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I really hope this works. Also: banning water-intensive farming in dumb places might help.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 9 months ago

It would definitely help because that is the main problem.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago

What do you mean I can't farm on a fucking desert? What kind of communist dunghole is this?

[–] [email protected] 18 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Or we could put effort towards limitations of fossil fuels and fix it long term. Maybe both, but if we don't do former, only duct tape.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Luckily this does both, to some extent. It's not as far as we need, but solar offsets dirty energy usage.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Doesn't Arizona get most of its energy from the giant nuclear power plant near Phoenix?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago

Well they're part of a larger grid. Any clean energy on the grid will be cheaper than dirty, so will be sold to offset dirty even if Arizona was 100% clean.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I don't understand how it "offsets". If someone pisses in the pool and I do it behind a tree, that somehow gets rid of piss molecules in the pool?

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago (3 children)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Water scarcity causes societal collapse throughout the American Southwest. Well written book, interesting premise - just an all around enjoyable bit of fiction.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check it out!

anyone that's interested:

the water knife

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago

Good book :)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago

YES! Such a good read!

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

They should try this at those retaining ponds where they filled them with black balls.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago

There are several companies working on solar covers for reservoirs. I agree, seems like a win win. Reduce evaporation and have a large, level, "field" for solar arrays.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Open canal systems should be illegal. This is the dumbest shit we do. At least top 10 dumbest.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 9 months ago (4 children)

As someone who knows nothing about canals (or what they are even used for), anyone want to explain why they are used, why they are dumb, and what we should do instead?

[–] [email protected] 21 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Evaporation. You lose a phenomenal amount of water moving it by canal over large distances in an arid climate. Ideally you'd enclose the whole system to reduce loss but sticking a roof over the top helps to some degree and is less complicated.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago (4 children)

An irrigation canal like this is a big ditch to move water from a river to near farm fields. Without the extra water taken from the river, there wouldn't be enough water in the soil for crops to grow in the area.

Being a big ditch open to the sky, the hot sun and dry air make a bunch of the irrigation water evaporate before it even gets to the field. So we went to all the effort of taking water out of the river just to waste it humidifying the nearby air.

Why did we do it in the first place? Because it's way easier and cheaper to dig a ditch than to lay a big pipe, and I don't know if the US had any other water-delivery tech at the right scale when these were built.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

Imagine a canal which is 3 feet wide at the minimum. It contains a constant volume of water. This canal ultimately waters farm land. By way of example, California has the imperial valley which contains these canal systems. They feed desert farm land. The problem is these canals are often:

  • open
  • in a hot dry desert
  • cheap

Water rights have perverted water usage. People take cheap water which was grandfathered in by old laws and agreements and they waste it to evaporation. If you think "well the water isn't lost, just evaporated, right?" You'd be close, but slightly off the mark. The water is evaporated but it's transported often hundreds or thousands of miles from its original source. We are basically bleeding rivers to feed a desert. And deserts might as well be an infinite sink for water.

We should not have farm land in deserts. But if we do, we should at least conserve the water we are using. Just because it's cheap doesn't mean it's good (not that you're implying that, just saying).

[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

it contains a constant volume of water

This guy has never been to the Phoenix area :P we even have rivers with no water, too! Bring the whole family, camp out and have imaginary marco / polo by the hill infested with scorpions, only a half-mile from the city dump! Bring your RV so you can feel like a complete moron with the other people who thought it was a great idea to buy a mini house on wheels that gets 6 miles to the gallon. And if you are early to rise, you can make Laughlin a day-trip to lose all your social security check by dusk, before sauntering back to the depression-rut of a life you have carved out for yourself. Because living in a desert with a large elderly population, just-barely-enough power during the summer even though there is a fucking nuclear power plant 20 miles out of town, and has been in a drought for my entire life while everyone waters their lawn 3 times a week, never felt so good!

Oh sorry I got mixed up with my "fuck off and stop moving here" speech. Give me 10 minutes.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago

I've been to Phoenix and I agree. I don't understand why they waste so much water.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago

Hundreds of miles of shallow canals in the middle of the desert, where regular exceeds 120° f. The water evaporates very quickly.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago (1 children)

This idea is so poorly conceived. Imagine installing and maintaining something like this. How are those panels supposed to stay clean?The panels and the cover should both be built but they should not be the same thing. No current panels are engineered for this application so they would have to be custom made. Just getting the project to the point where the first panel could be installed would cost millions. We could get started now installing commercially available shade covers and ground mounted solar. Ground mounted solar is simple to clean, simple to maintain, and simple to replace.

I agree the idea looks like a great way to reclaim the space, reduce evaporation, and generate power I just think the money would be better spent on a plan the optimized for expenses and longevity instead of optimizing for novelty.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago

I guess I missed it but how are these panels any different than typical ground based PV panels? Looks like, based on the rendering, they they are on some kind of rigid scaffolding over the canal. Not sure how that is different from typical installs?

For sure cleaning them is a problem, don't have an answer to that. Hope that that is accounted for in the proposal.

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