this post was submitted on 04 Apr 2025

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Fediverse

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Great ATProto blog post on the reasoning behind their design architecture (atproto.com)

submitted 16 hours ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 7 hours ago (2 children)

I know all you guys comment about fediverse(activityPub) is not bsky(atprotocol) but can we enjoy this stupid quote for a moment?

However, if the internet is functioning properly and you have a computer, an internet connection, and an IP address you can host a document on the web.

That statement is so redundant.
"internet functioning properly" = "an internet connection"
and you cant have an internet connection without an ip adress. On Lan you may have the option to let the device decide BUT it still needs one!

I dont think the entire article is bad or something but let me have my nitpickings.

its too long, and with that i mean half the thing is 3 concepts that could have been explained shorter
too many fancy words (i am not a native & my reading comprehension gets worse at all those extravagant marketing words, so thats my error)
not including the one picture of the protocoll/network topology. I needed to keep that in my brain to not get confused Masto Post with Topology
that one paragraph at the post start but can happen to anyone so its simply hilarious

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

not including the one picture of the protocoll/network topology

This is a solid one from their wiki

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 hours ago

thank you

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 hours ago

I could be connected to the internet but unable to route to something so there may be cases where an internet connection does not strictly mean the internet is working properly

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

This is interesting, but I don't yet entirely understand it.

My first thought after trying to read the entire document was that the author seems to suggest that "AT Protocol" is a natural result of the movements they describe, but I find it hard to believe that the "peer-to-peer (p2p) movement" could naturally result in things that "are not meaningfully decentralized, and are not federated".

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

I think they meant mostly the decentralised distribution of data.
At the end of "Generic hosting, Centralised product development" it says

Even though product development is centralized, the underlying data and identity remain open and universally accessible as a result of building on atproto. Put another way, ownership is clear for the evolution of a given application, but since the data is open, it can be reused, remixed, or extended by anyone else in the network.

So theoretically everyone can access the data but before it reaches the end users it goes through centralised applications like bsky

[–] [email protected] 23 points 15 hours ago (2 children)

ATProto is not the Fediverse. Is there something in this blog you think should be discussed in the context of the Fediverse?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

Wait how is it not the fediverse?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 hours ago

By “Fediverse” people usually refer to “ActivityPub”-based social networks such as Mastodon and Lemmy.

People also rightfully argue that Bluesky, despite the best of intentions, is not decentralised. See How decentralized is Bluesky really? (long read).

[–] [email protected] 13 points 13 hours ago

The Fediverse is a specific thing. And even if it were just referring to any federated social network, it's very questionable whether Bluesky really can have independent instances.

[+] [email protected] -6 points 15 hours ago (5 children)

The idea of the Fediverse is simply a group of social networks communicating through the same protocol, is that not what ATProto is attempting to accomplish?

I've been a long time supporter that ATProto actually is apart of the Fediverse. The ultimate goal of this subreddit is a fully decentralized social media landscape. Fracturing discussion between ActivityPub and ATProto helps no one, especially in niche communities like this. The long-term goal is the same, and whether that progression happens on protocol A or platform B it's progressive nonetheless and we should discuss it.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

The Fediverse is ActivityPub, because ActivityPub is how Fediverse servers talk to each other. BlueSky does not talk to Fediverse servers, so it cannot be said to be part of the Fediverse.

[+] [email protected] -11 points 14 hours ago (3 children)

Posted in another comment but wikipedia disagrees.

The Fediverse (commonly shortened to fedi)[4][5][6] is a collection of social networking services that can communicate with each other (formally known as federation) using a common protocol.

We can argue semantics all day but at the end of the day I'll hold the same stance that we shouldn't be fracturing the communities and instead discussing the content and idea of a decentralized communicating social media landscape.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 hours ago

I believe you're quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse

It seems that document currently expresses that "the AT Protocol, which powers the Bluesky social network" is "[a] major protocol in competition with the Fediverse", which suggests that neither "the AT Protocol" nor "Bluesky" are included in the Fediverse.

Moreover, "AT Protocol" and "Bluesky" are conspicuously absent from the second paragraph of the article content / lead section.

The majority of Fediverse platforms are based on free and open-source software, and create connections between servers using the ActivityPub protocol. Some software still supports older federation protocols as well, such as OStatus, the Diaspora protocol and Zot. Diaspora* is the only actively developed software project classified under the original definition of Fediverse that does not support ActivityPub.

There discussion related to this around https://thebrainbin.org/m/[email protected]/t/705694/-/comment/5682552

[–] [email protected] 11 points 12 hours ago

wE CaN aRgUe SeMaNtiCs aLL dAy

we shouldn't be fracturing the communities

Maybe use the same protocol, then.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

And what common protocol is that? If it doesn't talk to Fediverse servers using those servers' protocol, then it's not part of the same network.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

ATProto is it's own protocol / network of social media services that are communicating with each other?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 14 hours ago

So we agree that it is a different network? It is not the network that is the Fediverse?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 13 hours ago

The "Fediverse" (capital F) refers to the social media platforms utilizing ActivityPub, specifically. I don't believe there's any agreed-upon name for such a network on ATProto, since Bluesky is the only platform actively using it.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/

I support what they wanna do with a credible exit, but claiming that their goal is to or that they do make it easy for multiple different social networks (your PDS is not a new network, it’s data locally stored for the existing network) to communicate with each other is just false

[–] [email protected] -3 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

I'm fully aware that might not be #1 goal at the end of the day, but we're starting to see multiple social media networks start to exist with their own infrastructure on ATProto (https://sprk.so/ is in beta) and more importantly hosted outside the US.

These separate networks can interact with the BlueSky network if they choose so and the BlueSky network can interact with theirs if they use their Lexicon. There are other lightweight apps being built on top of BlueSkys Lexicon and relay system as well that are whole separate apps.

To say that's not their goal is a little weird because it's possible right now? Sure it might be difficult but they've merged quite a few changes to make the relay system much more accessible, and have put a lot of effort into the identity system recently.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

That's a different type of social network, which is also good, but the point is you are heavily incentivized to make another microblog relay.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Not sure of the point here? If your end goal is decentralization yes run another relay similar to how you'd host a Mastodon instance.

Even if you create a whole new network with a whole new Lexicon, BlueSkys firehouse intakes all Lexicons

[–] [email protected] 1 points 19 minutes ago

The idea of federation is that you have multiple instances of the same medium of social network; of the same lexicon. The same ATProto relay/firehose is the same instance of a social network. As explored in the link I gave you, ATProto does not make mastodon-scale self-hosting of relays easy, nor does it intend to, emphasis on "mastodon-scale"; instead, it makes centralized monolith self-hosting of existing/exported exoduses easy.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

ATProto is not decentralized.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

Would love to know why you think it's not?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 hours ago

This seems to describe my answer to this question in more detail than I'd be capable of right now: https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/

[–] [email protected] 10 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (2 children)

Because it's not functional without BSky servers and BSky also retains control of moderation.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

After reading the article i think you might be wrong with this one.

From what i got now is that there are 3 layers

First is storage which can be completly or is decentralised

Then backend/server/application layer which can be bsky or whatever ticktok alternative gets made which is not decentralised

and then user layer/view which depends on the application

What i want to say is that the relay can be exchanged through something else and then entirely including moderation and all

So pro atProto is:

data seems to be actually decentralised
applications sharing the data
everyone gets the data

And pro ActivityPub is:

more alternatives of the same application/server
way better control over data (federation & defederation)
servers interact with each other nativly (atPr seems to let the servers only interact with data)
more efficient (servers can update clients, in case of at least bsky clients have to ask servers)

pro ActivityPub? (unsure about the technical details)

moderation? As in shared lists
able to host by individuals? As in i dont need an compute intensive relay

[–] [email protected] -2 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

This is just wrong. Another platform similar to tiktok(spark) is in beta with their own infrastructure outside of all Bluesky servers and they have to deal with their own moderation. They can choose to read in any Bluesky data they please and bluesky can do the same with theirs.

If Bluesky shuts down all servers tomorrow they still exist. The federation is simply adopting their Lexicon into your relay and appview.

If you want a microblogging platform specifically you can easily run your own infrastructure similar to running an instance, intake all BlueSky posts and if Bluesky shuts down your app will continue operating using BlueSkys lexicon, however you'll have to manage your own moderation.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 hours ago

Its not wrong. The COO of BSky herself told me this.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Neither this community's sidebar nor Wikipedia agree with your definition.

[+] [email protected] -7 points 14 hours ago (3 children)

The literal first line of Wikipedia agrees with me?

The Fediverse (commonly shortened to fedi)[4][5][6] is a collection of social networking services that can communicate with each other (formally known as federation) using a common protocol.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

I believe you're quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse

Moreover, "AT Protocol" and "Bluesky" are conspicuously absent from the second paragraph of the article content / lead section.

The majority of Fediverse platforms are based on free and open-source software, and create connections between servers using the ActivityPub protocol. Some software still supports older federation protocols as well, such as OStatus, the Diaspora protocol and Zot. Diaspora* is the only actively developed software project classified under the original definition of Fediverse that does not support ActivityPub.

There discussion related to this around https://thebrainbin.org/m/[email protected]/t/705694/-/comment/5682529

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah I think we've been having on off discussions about ATProto's place in the Fediverse here for probably 2ish years in multiple threads.

Looks like today the crowd has finally more sternly come to a decision lol. I think there were threads last year here around this ATProto with a lot better nuance and discussion, but Bluesky has been getting a lot of hate and misinformation thrown at it from this pocket of the internet lately, which is somewhat disappointing since they both the pocket should operate symbiotically.

Possibly a sign of newer Lemmy users though which is good regardless.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 hours ago

"Reconciliation must come before economic cooperation", and I doubt that there will be imminent "reconciliation" between Bluesky and people who want to spend less than $100 for each month that they want to back up content shared using the AT Protocol. This is not impossible (since "Bluesky is a Public Benefit Corporation"), and there is a documented goal to have "multiple independent Relay services", but it seems that having one would cost well over $100 each month. In the meantime, trying to cooperate with a person is harder to justify when you don't know if they are actually willing to help you or not.

As a relevant example, consider that there are a notable number of people who wish to avoid cooperating with threads.net even though I would describe it as being part of the Fediverse.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Read on to literally the next paragraph, which says Diaspora is the only still developed platform that matches the original definition and does not use ActivityPub, or to the section that explicitly calls ATProto a Fediverse alternative.

The first paragraph is descriptive of the Fediverse, not a test for whether something is part of it. The Internet is a collection of computers communicating via TCP/IP. That doesn't mean any two computers communicating over TCP/IP are now part of the Internet.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 14 hours ago

And what does the next paragraph say after that?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

ATProto isnt the same protocol as activityhub which is what we are using to post/communicate between different instances.

You would argue that its all REST I suppose?