General Discussion for politics in the UK.
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[email protected] appears to have vanished! We can still see cached content from this link, but goodbye I guess! :'(
Maybe we could group together with other countries in the same continent as us and grow stronger bonds with them. You could even make it easier for trade to go between such countries by sharing some common laws amongst one another. Another wild idea is that if some countries are struggling to get people to work on certain industries, we could make it easier for people within this group to work between different countries.
Could call it the Group of Europe or something similar.
Yeah but if you value the cultural diversity of Europe why would you want to see it homogenised under one corporatist banner? Why should diversity be reduced to the special designation of a few products such as stilton and champagne?
What is right for the UK might not be right for the Republic of Ireland, what is right for Greece might not be right for Germany, What is right for France might not be right for Italy. Why should laws be drafted by completely unknown people in Brussels and applied to everybody?
Ultimately, why shouldn't people all across Europe have self-determination and autonomy? Don't we need more devolution not less?
Could we achieve this, and have free movement of people? Yeah, but not under what the E became. It certainly requires that people from poorer countries aren't used as basically scab/cheap labour to undermine pay and conditions of local workers of whatever origin.
Anyway, enough of that. What should best be considered a warning shot of future fascism was all sorted out about a decade ago. Hopefully UK society took note of the disaffection amongst the people that voted to leave the EU, looked at exactly what was bothering them, and, if they had good reason to be pissed off, addressed it!
What? They did fuck all but try and reverse the vote for years, terribly undermining the UK's negotiating position, then ignored the issues voters had thus opening the door for the reform party?
Oh right.
Downvote away but you can't downvote reality. We can still stop the fascists getting power in the UK, but not without addressing any legitimate issues reform voters have. Brexit should have been taken as a warning shot. It still isn't.
Its frustrating to see people down vote this due to cooky cutter propaganda but as a socialist party member I agree the European unions was a bad idea and the uk government willfully join even against the wants of the British people. This a forgotten part of uk history.
The fascists were the ones wanting Brexit though because they knew they couldn't make Britain the way they wanted it under the EU. And all of the bickering of trying to reverse that and undermine Brexit were just attempts to make sure we weren't just falling down into fascism, but we've only just delayed it. Fight ain't over yet.
You are completely missing the point. As long as you remain unable to deal with the actual issues facing people who will vote reform (never mind demonising them) you make reform's rise inevitable.
I think you're attacking me on a front I was not manning.
You are mistaken again.
I see your 5 eyes and raise you confiscation of all UK Trump/Musk assets to pay for the Ukraine war, as they are now both obviously Russian Oligarchs.
No no no. Musk - yes, no need to fool around there. But trump's assets need to be seized under the "Making everything super bigly again" act of 2025 wherein assets are moved under the control of the government to increase their value and pay out 100x their assessed worth instantly.
Just, ah, just sign here, sir.
Careful. Last time Australia threatened to deny America access to our intelligence apparatus they did a coup and took down our government
Fortunately/unfortunately for us the CIA is in the middle of their own coup and probably doesn’t have time for meddling right now
Thank you. I had no clue about this meddling. It's worth noting that M16 was involved as well, and the coup was conducted using archaic British monarchy laws.
There are circumstantial reasons to suspect MI6 (N.B.: Military Intelligence. Not the number 16.), and the Queen's involvement certainly makes it possible. But there isn't actually strong evidence that they were involved, and there's a much less clear motive for it. (Some general motive in terms of Australia moving to the left, but not the specific motive of the threat to shut down a CIA-run facility in Pine Gap.)
By contrast, we now know that the Governor General (the Queen's official representative in Australia) at the time was referred to as "our man" by the CIA and he involved with organisations that we now know were CIA funded. The CIA also had their "coupmaster" (nicknamed for his known involvement in other coups) appointed as Ambassador to Australia.
Thanks for the extra info. Seems highly likely. Also yeah I know it's MI6, I swear I typed that. I'm gonna blame autocorrect 😤
American here - please leave, for everyone’s sake. America as we have all known her is dead.
Why not kick the US out of 5 eyes.
Because the intelligence sharing network would instantly gain the nickname 'Speccy'.
I would think it mostly uses their infrastructure.
Australian here, yes please, if we can cancel AUKUS at the same time save us all a bunch of money that'd be cool too
You're right but it would be enormously complex. We'd actually have to set up a new, separate system, first, then leave, and do that without upsetting a notoriously thin-skinned sociopath, who would still, during the process, have all our secrets.
I disagree - everything we send goes to Moscow. Everything we get comes from Moscow. There is no value for us. There's nothing to lose by leaving.
I'm afraid there is, because Trump's vindictiveness won't stop with intelligence! Tariffs would be just the start.
Then he's already an aggressor. It s time to stand up bullies and fascists.
Yes. Again, I did start my comment with 'You're right'. But it's also the case that what you - and I - are advocating for would, in the short term, be a boon to terrorism and organised crime, and may well have knock on effects for the economy, too.
My point is not that we shouldn't do it, but that it would have massive, unpredictable consequences!
Wow, this is like the country level of justifying staying with an abuser. If the USA is unreliable and insecure, because of trumps, but more because the American people voted him in and their government sees fit not to prevent the kind of issues he's causing. Then it's better to leave and face consequences, and retaliate appropriately now, than suffer and still face those same consequences later.
No, it isn't, because the first thing I said was:
You’re right
And the rest of my comment simply pointed out that it would be complex and risky - which is true.
Probably why they wanted that Apple backdoor?
Do any of the 5 eyes country other than the us still have intelligence gathering capabilities worth anything? Pretty sure we all gutted them and started chipping in to pay subcontractors who are all loyal to american dollars. Its also kinda silly to think that after years of trusting america that they wouldn't have a back door and know everything we tried to keep from them anyways.
None of the 5 eyes or nato nations has the independence and sovereignty to direct its own foreign policy differently from the USA. They can moan and complain a little but if that's about it.