π
this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2023
2 points (100.0% liked)
Ask Lemmy
26778 readers
3072 users here now
A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions
Please don't post about US Politics. If you need to do this, try [email protected]
Rules: (interactive)
1) Be nice and; have fun
Doxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them
2) All posts must end with a '?'
This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?
3) No spam
Please do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.
4) NSFW is okay, within reason
Just remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [email protected] or [email protected].
NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].
5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions.
If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email [email protected]. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.
Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.
Partnered Communities:
Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
If you find yourself stumped by someoneβs point, you need to consider that point.
If you care about the people you're talking to, belittling their entire viewpoint dismissively without countering their arguments. Is not going to win them over. In fact it might hurt their relationship with you.
If you have the time and inclination, take the argument they have that you have an issue with, and break it down to its fundamental points. It's a good exercise for both of you. Work through what things mean at a fundamental level to both of you and find what the core disagreement is. Is it philosophical, is it structural, is it traditional, there's many facets of an argument that people can latch on to. Having them explain why to you and then why the why etc can be helpful for both you and them to come to if not a common understanding but a mutual respect for positions.
But this is time intensive, and if we're just talking about randos on the internet it's not worth your time.
You don't. See the first (introduction) video from the Alt-Right Playbook. Basically, there is a real risk that even if you "win" the argument, the red-pill derp just gets angry and takes it out on a convenient female target. The energy is better spent finding ways to counter red-pill ideology that don't involve engaging directly with these people.
The first step to changing someone's mind is acknowledging that you probably won't be able to. The other commenters are right, the red pill is stupid, it's annoying to argue with them, and you'll probably fail the delicate act of ideological conversion. Still want to give it a shot? Great!
Depending on how deep down the rabbit hole they are, the answer is it could either be impossible or it's a long term dedicated effort. First you should learn a bit about cult deprogramming techniques, as while the red pill isn't really a cult it is an echo chamber ie. a mostly comprehensive view of the world that has built in answers that insulate from external dissent. The red pill tends to provide community, some degree of lifestyle improvement, and a feeling of secret insights into society / the world, and it's very rare an individual will give those things up for the sake of something as abstract as logical consistency.
You need to slowly provide alternatives to whatever positives the red pill provides, which while annoying is possible because the red pill sucks. The online sense of community is tenuous at best, so be their friend and connect them to other friends that'll entirely replace that aspect. Additionally, the lifestyle improvement aspect is rather generic and can come from anywhere. Ask them what specific red pill people they follow and provide a gym / motivation YouTuber that better provides whatever motivation the red pill gives.
The final element is the feeling of insight into the world that the red pill gives. This one is ironically the least important to changing someone's mind and the most difficult, as in order to successfully provide alternatives you likely need to understand the red pill ideology better than they do. Nothing a red pill person says should stump you, you should have heard it beforehand and researched it and thought of better counter arguments. If they mention hypergamy, you should have annecdotal, theoretical, and statistical answers ready to go. You should know their ideology well so you can make annoying jokes about how ridiculous it is when applied to real life.
If you do these things, over enough time and done diplomatically enough so they don't leave you for a friend that doesn't annoy them, you can probably depeogram a red pill person.
I know this was posted eons ago but this needs to be said. The most HONEST way to deal with Red Pill rhetoric is to verbally Aikido them.
First, admit the truth - SOME women are exactly like the nightmares they conjure up. I mean, Miriam Nakamoto DID dump her boyfriend specifically BECAUSE he failed to look masculine enough while he was losing a MMA match. There are women like that in the world. Evidence you bring up isn't going to negate that, and it is fear of these women that DRIVES Red Pill. When you say that's not a thing, you're giving them false information. You're gaslighting at that point, and they're going to see that and retreat back to their extremist ideology.
So the SECOND part is, go with what you know and we all know: women ain't all like that. But there's also the missing link here: Red Pill people are that way because they failed to properly pick the women they date, so they just keep running into these bad women. The problem you must address is that they're all about dating the best looking women rather than the nicest women, and they are the CLASSIC example of men who fall for "crazy hot" women. Sound familiar? Yeah because it's the counterpart for they say women fall for Chads/jerks. So the answer to the real problems that Red Pill brings up is not their sociopathic Dark Triad tactics, it's properly vetting your partners - looking for moral character and actual compatibility rather than just the best looking women. They need to be specifically told that if a man can't be attracted to a woman who's not 18-19 years old, big breasts and hourglass figure (the female counterpart to 6 feet, 6 figures and 6 inches) then that man needs to rethink his life rather than turn to the Redpill.
This is the whole answer that they need.
I've heard it said (by a sociologist) that unwinding conspiratorial thinking requires approaching someone with compassion. Rather than tell them that they are wrong, ask them to explain why they think a particular thing.
Honestly, I don't have the patience or compassion to try to do this. I gave up trying to talk my mother out of her Fox News beliefs and instituted a "no politics" rule in our relationship in order to save it. Best move that was available for me.
Itβs stupid because:
- Women are not some single homogenous group. Every woman is a unique person, just like men are.
- Everyone by default deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, including women.
- Being an asshole doesnβt make you more likable.
- Instead of trying to hack your way into a relationship, have you tried actually dating someone?
Women are not some single homogenous group. Every woman is a unique person, just like men are.
Actually I think you'll find that all women everywhere can be extrapolated from 5 shit takes on Twitter, one of which was a joke and one of which was a far-right LARPer /s
There are books about how to manipulate women. I read one of those and felt sick. No normal man can write stuff like that, publish it, and feel good about himself. Jesus.
Normal men don't read it either. We're potentially raising more broken young men than we've seen in the last hundred years. And when the aftershocks arrive, people will act surprised like they always do.
It's by design. I know it sounds a bit lame, but it's obvious the west is not spending money on creating healthy kids and adults.
I personally manipulate my wife into loving me by being a responsible husband and loving father.
Am I doing it right?
Based and dadpilled.
Yes that kind of manipulation is quite alright. :)