this post was submitted on 20 Jan 2024
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Dear Andre,

I'm Gianpiero Morbello, serving as the Head of IOT and Ecosystem at Haier Europe.

 It's a pleasure to hear from you. We just received your email, and coincidentally, I was in the process of sending you a mail with a similar suggestion.

I want to emphasize Haier Europe's enthusiasm for supporting initiatives in the open world. Please note that our IOT vision revolves around a three-pillar strategy:

    achieving 100% connectivity for our appliances,
    opening our IOT infrastructure (we are aligned with Matter and extensively integrating third-party connections through APIs, and looking for any other opportunity it might be interesting),
    and the third pillar involves enhancing consumer value through the integration of various appliances and services, as an example we are pretty active in the energy management opening our platform to solution which are coming from energy providers.

Our strategy's cornerstone is the IOT platform and the HON app, introduced on AWS in 2020 with a focus on Privacy and Security by Design principles. We're delighted that our HON connected appliances and solutions have been well-received so the number of connected active consumers is growing day after day, with high level of satisfaction proven by the high rates we receive in the App stores.

Prioritizing the efficiency of HON functions when making AWS calls has been crucial, particularly in light of the notable increase in active users mentioned above. This focus enables us to effectively control costs.

Recently, we've observed a substantial increase in AWS calls attributed to your plugin, prompting the communication you previously received as standard protocol for our company, but as mentioned earlier, we are committed to transparency and keenly interested in collaborating with you not only to optimize your plugin in alignment with our cost control objectives, but also to cooperate in better serving your community.

I propose scheduling a call involving our IOT Technology department to address the issue comprehensively and respond to any questions both parties may have.

Hope to hear back from you soon.

Best regards

Gianpiero Morbello
Head of Brand & IOT
Haier Europe

If only they would have reached out this way the first time instead of a cease and desist, their brand getting dragged through the mud could have been avoided.

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[–] [email protected] 180 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Well, how about having a local API and have no calls at all to your cloud infrastructure? Probably too easy and you cannot lock people into your ecosystem.

[–] [email protected] 76 points 10 months ago (26 children)

From any practical standpoint, this makes so much sense.

Sometimes my Tesla fails to unlock for some reason and I have to disable my VPN and then stand next to it like a God damn idiot for 10 seconds while it calls it's servers in fucking California to ask it to unlock my car.

[–] [email protected] 94 points 10 months ago (3 children)

As if I needed yet another reason to never ever own a Tesla.

My car has this crazy technology in it: You can stick the key in the door and twist and it'll unlock. Even if the network is down or the battery is dead. Arcane, right?

[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago (8 children)

Anyone buying a Tesla at this point either knows they're buying a shit car purely for the status symbol, or they're a rube. Fools and their money and all that

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago

Are they even a status symbol at this point? At least where I'm at they're a dime a dozen.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Haha yeah there are other, more reliable methods but the "phone as a key" is also super convenient when it works properly, which is most of the time. It just would be a lot smarter if it worked locally.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

...Or if there were an alternative option that didn't rely on software and electronics is my point.

Cars have had electronic remote keyless entry for decades. It's not new. Some of them even have phone apps that duplicate that functionality. No one but Tesla has been stupid enough to remove the keyhole, though.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I will be driving my 03 1.8t 5mt Jetta into the ground, thank you very much.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Someone tell Gianpiero! You could save up to 20% on Amazon fees in just 5 minutes. Commit to a Local API today!

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago

Yep people should only purchase things that don't require the cloud. Local control is the best.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I'm glad the people with this device are getting traction on using it with their HA, but holy hell this is a complete non-starter for me and I cannot understand why they got it in the first place. There's no climate automation I would ever want that is worth a spying device connected to the internet and a spying app installed on my phone.

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[–] [email protected] 109 points 10 months ago (2 children)

It's damage control, they realised what they did was getting them bad PR since news of it started spreading so they are attempting to remedy the bad PR through damage control

Corporations only care about profits, not people

[–] [email protected] 77 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Oh absolutely agree, but this is where they can use it.

The dev can say that they obviously need an official plugin, and work with them on that because now they have 1,800 clones of an unofficial one that may not be optimized.

We also get to know that our tiny HA community has hit a critical mass large enough to get a corpo to freak out a bit

[–] [email protected] 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I did my part and sent them a "do this and I'll never buy a Haier product" email. Corporations exist to maximize profits. Communities like ours just have to learn how to make it clear to them that shutting us out will hurt their profitability.

I think we should all be really proud of ourselves. We banded together and, regardless of WHY Haier is doing this, got them to open a line of communication. This is a huge win!

[–] [email protected] 29 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

Yes, it is damage control. That's OK.

The whole point of spreading the word about an incident like this is to get public attention on it, and make the company realize that the way they've handled things was bad.

A letter like this indicates that they've realized they fucked up and they want to do things differently going forward. That doesn't mean they're suddenly trustworthy, but it does mean they can be negotiated with.

The correct response is to accept the offer of working together. We want to encourage companies to be cooperative and discourage insular, proprietary behavior. If you slap away the offered hand then you discourage future cooperation, and now you're the roadblock to developing an open system.

When you start getting the results that you want, don't respond with further hostility.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Exactly this. I understand the cynicism, but it ultimately doesn't matter what the motivation of a company walking back a poor decision is. We take the chance for mutual collaboration and hopefully everyone benefits.

On an individual level, that's when people can evaluate if they still want to boycott and do whatever their own moral compass demands. But refusing to work together at this point just means we definitely don't get the chance in the future to steer things in a better direction.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

And even if the cooperation doesn't last, it's an opportunity for the open source developers to work with the product engineers and get direct information from them right now. There's nothing as valuable as talking to the guy that actually designed the thing, or the guy who can make changes to the product code.

Even if that relationship doesn't hold long term, the information gathered in the short term will be useful.

If I were part of this project this is what I'd be going for. Push the company to give you direct contact with the relevant engineers, right now while the negative public opinion is fresh and they're most willing to make concessions, and then get as much out of that contact as you can. Take them at their word, make them actually back it up, take advantage of the offer to cooperate. Sort the rest of it out later.

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[–] [email protected] 70 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Yeah, they can fuck off. When their opening salvo was threats and legal bluster, I don't see why anyone should trust an alleged olive branch now. The right thing to do was not to send this email second.

I have to work with Haier in my business now as well ever since they bought GE. They're a shitty company that goes back on their word constantly (at least within the B2B space), and nobody should be giving them one thin dime.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Legal threats come from lawyers, while this email comes from an engineer.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 10 months ago

... Which makes it even less credible legally.

Unless you're getting C-suite level emails saying they're not going to do it, don't trust them.

And even then you should be ready to sue.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 9 months ago

But a company is a sum of these (and other) people. In this case, it's a draw at best, not a win.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago

Generally, an engineer wants their product to work well and work efficiently. They put effort into a product, and it feels good to see people benefit from that work. The ones making the decisions have money on their mind. If a FOSS version of their paid platform costs them too much money, they will shut it down. Not because it was the engineers decision, but because the one's making the decision likely don't even know what github is and just know it's taking away that sweet subscription money.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Respectfully, I disagree. Yes, indeed this first message is PR damage control, but there is something to be gained here for the FOSS community.

This backtrack sends the message out, discouraging other companies with legal departments from trying the same trick else they risk sales. If a positive resolution comes out of this (A. Andre's project becomes officially supported by Haier with more features whilst being more efficient with API calls, or B. Haier develops a local API option) then it shows other companies there is value in working together with the FOSS community rather than viewing them as an adversary or as competition to be eliminated.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago

Nah, this is Haier trying to save face. They saw how the story went, that the repo was forked a thousand times in a few hours. They know their engineering team can't win, long term, against dedicated, pissed off geeks.

Would they play nice with you if the tables were reversed? No.

They already played the legal card, engaging with them at this point would be extremely naive.

Fuck them. Now is the time to pummel them even harder. Making them eat their words is what will send a message to the rest of the jackasses designing garbage and tracking us relentlessly for access to what should be trivial to engineer features.

[–] [email protected] 69 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Recently, we've observed a substantial increase in AWS calls attributed to your plugin, prompting the communication you previously received as standard protocol for our company, but as mentioned earlier, we are committed to transparency and keenly interested in collaborating with you not only to optimize your plugin in alignment with our cost control objectives,

i get it; their amazon account gets hit hard by some plugin data stream, they trace the source and kill it for monetary reasons. makes total sense. handled terrible, but still, i also completely understand getting some giant bill from amazon and freaking the fuck out.

[–] [email protected] 66 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Sounds the solution is to allow users to not have to connect to the server in the first place and communicate across a local network.

Because they’ve probably killed more money from loss of sales through this stunt than they have from AWS fees.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 10 months ago (5 children)

I highly doubt it. Lemmy isn't representative of the general population, and the general population has no idea what Home Assistant is.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The general population is very much influenced by the Home Assistant community since the Home Assistant Community is made up of people who are heavily into technology. My parents will run purchases in the tech world past me, as will many of my work colleagues and friends.

The general population are very interested in what we do, even if they do not do it themselves. I mentioned to a tech-phobic friend that I have sensors in my bath that notify me when my bath is run and he takes the piss out of me to my face then talks about how amazing such a thing is behind my back, I know because it happened yesterday. Who do you think he's gonna talk to when he buys his next expensive appliance?

Don't talk our influence down, we have an influence even if you can't see it.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You're showing your bias as someone who's knowledgeable about technology. It's not uncommon for people with an interest in something to assume that knowledge or interest is universal. It's not.

The average consumer has absolutely no idea how technology works, and they have no interest in knowing. They'll just buy off the shelf garbage because brand name and nothing else.

I mean, why does HP's printer division still exist if "everyone" knows they're a shitty company that will brick your printer if you use 3rd party cartridges? Why do people buy Tuya devices even though they're essentially Chinese government spying devices?

It's because "everyone" doesn't know. And they don't care.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (3 children)

When you said "I highly doubt it" in response to the first comment, what were you doubting? You comment does not seem to make sense in response to the comment. They said that the open source project has likely cost more money in lost subscription fee's than in AWS API calls, and you said you doubt it?

Then the person replying to you said "The general population is very much influenced by the Home Assistant community" not that everyone knows about it. But your comment talks strictly about how commonly known things in the tech world are not commonly known in the general population (which I think is pretty commonly known in the tech world as well).

This comment chain does not seem to be talking about the same things.

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[–] [email protected] 44 points 10 months ago (1 children)

"We don't know how to rate limit our API or set billing alarms in the AWS console."

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Yup exactly. They just need better responses than "get legal on the phone"

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 10 months ago

From the previous issue it sounds like the developer has proper legal representation, but in his place I wouldn't even begin talking with Haier until they formally revoke the C&D, and provide enforceable assurances that they won't sue in the future.

Also I don't know what their margins are like, but even if this cost them an extra $1000 in AWS fees on top of what their official app would have cost them (I seriously doubt it would be that much unless their infrastructure is absolute bananas), then it would probably only be a single-digit number of sales that they would have needed to loose to come out worse off from this.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Just set a rate limit? This could have been a code change and a blog post.

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Honestly they should find away to make it work with HA instead of the companies servers.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Yep.

Fuck Haier, espscially at this point.

Had they tried working with him furst, they'd have a little moral ground to stand on.

Now the lives are off. How many forks are there if his git repo now? It was a thousand yesterday.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I don't know about you but I want the companies to take self hosted and Foss solutions seriously. The fact that they are wanting to work with him is a major step in the right direction. It would be dumb to discourage companies from supporting foss.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

Are they supporting FOSS, or looking to buy out the project to make it a closed in-house solution and avoid the bad publicity they created this last week?

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The spacing in the email screwed up the formatting:

Dear Andre,

I'm Gianpiero Morbello, serving as the Head of IOT and Ecosystem at Haier Europe.

It's a pleasure to hear from you. We just received your email, and coincidentally, I was in the process of sending you a mail with a similar suggestion.

I want to emphasize Haier Europe's enthusiasm for supporting initiatives in the open world. Please note that our IOT vision revolves around a three-pillar strategy:

  • achieving 100% connectivity for our appliances,
  • opening our IOT infrastructure (we are aligned with Matter and extensively integrating third-party connections through APIs, and looking for any other opportunity it might be interesting),
  • and the third pillar involves enhancing consumer value through the integration of various appliances and services, as an example we are pretty active in the energy management opening our platform to solution which are coming from energy providers.

Our strategy's cornerstone is the IOT platform and the HON app, introduced on AWS in 2020 with a focus on Privacy and Security by Design principles. We're delighted that our HON connected appliances and solutions have been well-received so the number of connected active consumers is growing day after day, with high level of satisfaction proven by the high rates we receive in the App stores.

Prioritizing the efficiency of HON functions when making AWS calls has been crucial, particularly in light of the notable increase in active users mentioned above. This focus enables us to effectively control costs.

Recently, we've observed a substantial increase in AWS calls attributed to your plugin, prompting the communication you previously received as standard protocol for our company, but as mentioned earlier, we are committed to transparency and keenly interested in collaborating with you not only to optimize your plugin in alignment with our cost control objectives, but also to cooperate in better serving your community.

I propose scheduling a call involving our IOT Technology department to address the issue comprehensively and respond to any questions both parties may have.

Hope to hear back from you soon.

Best regards

Gianpiero Morbello Head of Brand & IOT Haier Europe

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago

Thanks, on my phone and can't edit it well right now

[–] [email protected] 19 points 10 months ago

Happy to see them backtrack. I didn't think the backlash would be large enough. Let's see if they follow through on the backtrack though

[–] [email protected] 16 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I'm glad the threat of being on a FOSS Hall of Shame is effective for some companies, and that they can't just frivolous lawsuit away a hobby developer without consequences to their bottom line, which would have set a bad precedent against small-time FOSS developers everywhere.

Now their status to me is moved from "Shitlist" to "Shitlist Pending", they've talked their talk so now it's time to see them walk their walk. Best would be to allow users to control their Haier products from their own servers rather than Haier's. That will reduce their cloud computing bills from 3rd party users but they can still offer "compelling value" in their walled garden ecosystem as a simple one-and-done setup. Win-win right?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:

Fewer Letters More Letters
Git Popular version control system, primarily for code
HA Home Assistant automation software
~ High Availability
IoT Internet of Things for device controllers
VPN Virtual Private Network

4 acronyms in this thread; the most compressed thread commented on today has 6 acronyms.

[Thread #443 for this sub, first seen 20th Jan 2024, 17:55] [FAQ] [Full list] [Contact] [Source code]

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