this post was submitted on 19 May 2024
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[–] [email protected] 33 points 7 months ago (4 children)

Because (so-called) "libertarians" aren't.

The term "libertarian" has been hijacked in the anglophone-world (starting in the US, of course) to essentially just mean "fundamentalist capitalist" - they are right-wingers who have been immunized from reality and mindlessly support only "liberty" as it applies to private corporations and their interests. Therefore, it shouldn't surprise anyone that you can find these (so-called) "libertarians" anywhere you find neo-nazis and the KKK.

In the non-anglophone world, the term libertarian still holds it's original meaning - a socialist... or, more specifically, an anarchist.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 7 months ago (3 children)

It does seem to now mean "people that don't want to pay their taxes".

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I can't think of anything more spoilt and privileged than taxes being the only thing you have to whine about.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago

Libertarians do tend to support the idea of negative liberty which would include ideas like freedom from compulsory taxes (that's not to say that all libertarians are of the same opinion). To say that it is only that, however, is quite reductionist, and rather ignorant.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The best description for the modern "libertarian" I've heard is that they're just conservatives who smoke weed

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (2 children)

The best description for the modern “libertarian” I’ve heard is that they’re just ~~conservatives~~ fascists who smoke weed

Now I agree.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I don't think they're fascist, just selfish in most cases. They take the "me" in "Don't tread on me" too literally, and only care about their own rights and their own needs, fuck everyone else's.

Their Venn diagram of "Things the government should provide/allow people to do" and "Things I personally need/want to do" is just a circle, and they won't lift a finger to try to shape the government to work well for anyone else.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 7 months ago (2 children)

One of the vilest messiahs of US "libertarianism," Murray Rothbard, associated with Holocaust deniers and argued for the pig to be allowed to torture suspects (not people convicted of anything - suspects).

If your roots are fascist, you are fascist. US "libertarianism" is about as fascist as Heinrich Himmler.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Probably 99% of self described libertarians don't know anything about that, or actual libertarian rhetoric in general, they just want to smoke weed and not pay taxes for stuff that doesn't personally benefit them and they think that's what libertarianism is

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

FWIW,

rw:Murray Rothbard

Rothbard was one of the foremost proponents of the pseudo-psychology known as praxeology. Rothbard viewed property rights as paramount to freedom and so went even beyond von Mises, who was a minarchist, in advocating anarcho-capitalism. He was also known as a big critic of fractional reserve banking and the Federal Reserve. Because of his philosophy, he held many views that would be seen as progressive as well as ones that were misguided. For example, he voiced support for the civil rights movement,[note 1] but also defended the practice of child labor, "racialist science,"[2] and that "cops must be unleashed, and allowed to administer instant punishment."[3] Also, despite his initial vocal support for revolutionary black power politics, he later worked with Lew Rockwell, founder and then president of the Ludwig von Mises Institute, to run a campaign strategy to exploit racism in order to build a libertarian/paleoconservative coalition (dubbed Paleolibertarianism),[4] and praised the notorious work by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray, The Bell Curve.[5] He was known as the first anarcho-capitalist.

rw:Benito Mussolini

Benito later followed his mother into school-teaching and became politically active as a democratic socialist. He was a very prominent member of the Italian Socialist Party in the years prior to World War I.[18] He edited several socialist papers and also wrote a satirical novel, The Cardinal's Mistress, which was poorly written and mostly served as a vehicle for numerous anti-clerical rants.[19][20]

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Soooo... US “libertarianism” is about as fascist as Heinrich Himmler.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Apparently Rothbard wasn't as bad as Himmler, but he was bad enough.

You no more have to be a disciple of Rothbard, Rand, or Hoppe to be a libertarian, anymore than you have to be a tankie to be leftist, however tankies might say otherwise.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Apparently Rothbard wasn’t as bad as Himmler,

Of course not - the likes of Rothbard or Rand will never be caught dead close to the mass-graves their ideological grifting helped to dig.

anymore than you have to be a tankie to be leftist

I make a hard distinction between leftists and political racketeers masquerading as leftists right until they get the power they crave. I place everything spawned by the Bolsheviks in the latter category.

There is nothing unique or new about this distinction.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Rand wrote about the Nazis and fascists.

She didn't like them.

So are you saying that your brand of leftism was spawned before the Bolsheviks—i.e. over 100 years ago?

What do you think about Karl Marx, a 19th century political philosopher, IIUC?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

She didn’t like them.

She sure liked their methods.

So are you saying that your brand of leftism was spawned before

The French didn't invent left or right - they just invented a useful shorthand to distinguish between the two.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The most successful socialists on the planet used fascistic methods.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hoxha, probably Tito and Castro, arguably Pol Pot, Guzman, arguably the PFLP.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Perpetrating mass-murder against the working class doesn't conform to any worthwile description of the term "socialism" - so that disqualifies everyone on your list except Tito and Castro. And I'd describe them purely as nationalists.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago

Not all libertarians smoke weed.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

"Libertarian" became popular in the US when it started being incorporated into various science fiction novels. Probably the most famous is "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress." I love the book as science fiction, but the society the author creates depends on so many caveats that even the author has the old style 'free' system fall apart as soon as an actual government [as opposed to prison regulations] is formed.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

“Libertarian” became popular in the US when it started being incorporated into various science fiction novels.

They got their que from right-wing economic grifters like Rothbard and Hayek - people whose beliefs wouldn't be out of place in Nazi Germany. That's why olden days US sci-fi writing was a festering hole of fascism - nothing else could have produced people like Heinlein.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 months ago (27 children)

Heinlein was a huge friend to Philip K. Dick, and any number of Jewish science fiction writers. He was one of the first writers to have an African woman as a hero, one of the first to have a transman character. Stop using the word 'fascist' for anyone on the Right. It dilutes the term.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I got mine from the Libertarian party, a few decades ago.

They didn't seem too fascistic back then.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Of course they didn't, eh? Of course.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

They didn't wear brown, black, or blue uniforms.

They wore no uniforms.

One seemed to like Dead Kennedy's and Black Flag.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (3 children)

They didn’t wear brown, black, or blue uniforms.

Most fascists don't.

One seemed to like Dead Kennedy’s and Black Flag.

And up until very recently a whole bunch of them thought Rage Against The Machine was theirs, too.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago

I'd personally prefer to not give them the satisfaction of calling themselves "libertarians", and to, instaed, call them out on their missapropriation — the philosophy should be defended from those who would tarnish it.