this post was submitted on 10 May 2024
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"We want expensive American EVs that most people can't afford, not cheap Chinese ones....."
China is subsidizing EV production and selling cars below cost. Allowing them to be sold in the US would kill the domestic EV market. How is that better for Americans?
wasn't that the whole point of capitalism anyways? /s
Well the USA and just about every other nation runs a regulated Market System, not a Laissez Faire Capitalism.
Americans get cheaper EVs and the legacy auto industry gets taught a valuable lesson as companies who refused to modernize go bankrupt.
For a few years, until the American automakers go bankrupt, as you said, then the Chinese automakers increase prices 10x.
What a valuable lesson, get subsidized by an authoritarian government so that you can offer vehicles below cost. Also be sure to add spyware for the aforementioned authoritarian government.
Do you even understand what below cost means? No amount of modernization will counteract it.
Americans can also buy EVs from countries other than China. America can also subsidise internal EV production.
My point is that we shouldn't give a fuck about petrol loving manufacturers.
Respond to user demand and environmental pressure.
Don't arrogantly assume your polluting product will remain market leader.
Don't build ever bigger vehicles just to avoid particular regulations.
Yes. Would you like some oil industry case studies?
Have you heard of R&D investment, continual process improvement and economies of scale?
You're literally just talking to yourself, ignoring any mention of selling below cost, which is the biggest issue, with spyware being a close 2nd.
They responded
Adressed twice.
Suggesting subsidies should be given to American EV manufacturers
Investing to lower costs.
You think US products won't have spyware?
You're saying "they", but it's you. And no you didn't, repeating what you said before isn't addressing the issues.
Never addressed at all, you pivoted to the oil industry. You didn't address the subsidies from China or the unfair trade practices.
America will not subsidize to that level, if they could, and no amount of innovation is going to combat subsidization or the unfair trade practices.
According to a Bloomberg article, China will sell EVs at under $10,000, undercutting the price of the average American EV by $50,000. Are you seriously arguing that "investment to lower cost" will reduce the cost by 85-90%? That's simply a ludicrous assertion.
I don't think that collecting anonymized usage data, is the same as unlimited spying going back to an authoritarian government. So no, absolutely nothing comparable.
If you respond then I'm not talking to myself.
Directly answering a question is not pivoting. You asked if I knew about producing below cost. Yes, there are lots of examples of subsidies in the oil industry.
I did. Twice.
Course it could. Have you seen the defense budget? Take some of that.
I said the solution was subsidies and innovation.
Are you certain it is anonymous?
America is already an authoritarian government. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2017/03/08/what-we-know-about-car-hacking-the-cia-and-those-wikileaks-claims/
Honestly, everything you have said is dishonest and/or disingenuous. The idea that the price of the vehicle is going to be reduced by 90% as a result of subsidies and innovation is both stupid and dishonest. You should also look up the definition of authoritarian.
Nope. Dishonest would be failing to recognise the legacy auto industry's failure to invest sufficiently in EVs and related infrastructure. A disingenuous person would try to argue purely with xenophobia.
Isn't that exactly what you are claiming the Chinese are doing?
You should take a good look at American justice and law enforcement.
Tell me you know nothing about Chinese EVs without saying you know nothing about Chinese EVs.
Did we lose our industry when the Japanese auto manufacturers entered our market? When the Koreans did?
What's different this time?
Yeah cause car dependency is a completely unsustainable scam that's literally destroying the planet.
Is it really so much better to by subsidized by an colonial/imperial government (that's also authoritarian)?
Yes. It's an ideological term that promotes imaginary numbers over social reality.
They aren't exporting them below cost, that's why they want to export. Inside China every company tried to start an EV division because they heard Apple was doing it and assumed it must be a good idea. Now the market is topped out and the biggest companies are trying to price the smaller ones out of business (which still isn't below manufacturing cost because China regulates that and is nervous about having tons of cars from bankrupt companies on the road). They export with a huge profit margin to make up for the domestic price war.
Also by claiming "developing nation", which is up to the nation to decide for themselves instead of having someone else decide for them, the planet's second largest economy gets to claim WTO rules that the recipient (country) pays delivery. That's why you can buy something from China for $1.50 and yet it costs $150 to send it back if it doesn't work.
Well, they're actually heavily subsidizing steel and aluminium, which are coincidentally what these Tariffs are for. It was never about EVs specifically.
He actually doesn't talk about EVs at all, this tariff is against cheep steel and aluminium that the CCP is subsidizing.