Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.
[Matrix/Element]Dead
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No company is going to legally go to bat for you for $10/mo. I love how Proton nonchalantly calls out the user's dumb move in the article:
Proton provides privacy by default and not anonymity by default because anonymity requires certain user actions to ensure proper OpSec, such as not adding your Apple account as an optional recovery method. Note, Proton does not require adding a recovery address as this information can in theory be turned over under Swiss court order...
It is worth noting though, that Proton doesn't allow you to use certain domains for recovery addresses. Admittedly this was awhile ago and maybe things have changed there but when I first joined Proton they wouldn't allow me to set a duck.com or simplelogin.com or addy.io address as a recovery email.
Obviously using an apple ID is stupid but Proton could make more of an effort too.
They are actually quite aggressive about blocking disposable emails, most free services don't work. I have used protonmail a few times for semi-disposable accounts that used disposable emails to sign up, and some of them were banned later.
I actually set simplelogin as recovery lol
So they will ask proton again for the address where everything is being forwarded... Not a good plan.
It would be fun to daisy chain a bazillion emails, all forwarding to each other in circles and have the cops just call yahoo 20 times.
At any point in the process, does it warn you about setting up recovery with personal email addresses?
Feels like with as much as Proton advertises nowadays as a privacy protecting service, they need to be taking into consideration that a lot of their customers now are going to be average users who don't know anything about proper OpSec. They should be much clearer about what things they can't protect you from.
It shouldn't be in a press release like this, they should be explaining the difference between privacy and anonymity to the customer. It's not like their marketing team isn't aware of the fact most people don't know any better.
It's in their best interests, too, because it doesn't matter how many times you say "we provide privacy not anonymity", the headlines are a bad look.
Unless you're targeted by law enforcement, having a recovery email won't be an issue. 99.99% of the userbase world never have a problem with this.
I get what you say, but it's really nitpicking at this point I think.
Proton does require a recovery email address if you sign up to a mail forwarding service or similar, right after creating the account. In that case the account remains locked if you don’t, so that’s just a lie
In the article it says that that's a one-time verification address. Though that leaves the question if/how long it's stored
Still, it wasn’t optional for me, so I’m pretty annoyed that they’re saying it.
You can remove the mail after but indeed, I won’t trust proton with not keeping that info. The mail has to be entered in the recovery email field, and then sends mail to the recovery email when you have unread mail. So it’s not a one-time mail sent with a code.
What would be a more appropriate email address to use - or just no recovery email?
It's best for anonymity to not use one at all. Proton provides a recovery key to allow access to your account if you manage to lock yourself out. Keep that key somewhere safe/secure.
Thank you. Recovery key seems like a better route for sure
Thing is, Protonmail has been telling people this from the very beginning. It's like it gets rediscovered every year or so when somebody else gets busted.
It looks more like multiple companies were needed to pin the individual. I don't expect any company to not comply with legal requests. My understanding is this is why it's important to know what information a company retains.
For my own use, I have used Proton just to mitigate being a source of ad info and to get better service. I'm not interesting enough to overthrow anything.
Most info came from the fact that they made the move to link their personal iCloud Mail as a recovery method.
Infinite wisdom.
Logically, any service, whether private or not, is required by law to reveal the user data they have, if there is a court order for a criminal investigation. Proton cannot refuse, if it does not want to face a complaint that could even lead to the closure of its service. That is, in this headline the "Proton Mail" can be replaced by any other email, host, chat, social network, VPN, Lemmy, it can occur in any of them. As said, read TOS and PP of what you use
Maybe also just consider any email insecure by default ? Like it's fcking email, having privacy, let alone security or anonymity is just like trying to mod a skateboard into a secure highway vehicule imho
Not really news. Proton follows the law. If they get a Swiss court order they will comply.
If you want to do illegal (under Swiss law) things, proton won't cover you.
Another case of a user with terrible opsec that proton will end up being blamed for.
I'm not sure how I feel about this news story.
On the one side, it's good to make sure people are aware of the limitations of secure email providers. However on the other the article almost reads as of this should be a surprise to people?
I use Proton mail and pay for my account. I don't pay for anonyminity - I pay for privacy. They are two very different things.
The article talks about Opsec (operational security) and they're right - if you need anonyminity then don't use your personal apple email as a recovery address. That is a flaw in the user approach and expectations that unencrypted data held by Proton is also "secure". Your basic details and your IP address are going to be recorded and available to law enforcement. Use a VPN or Tor to access the service and use another untraceable email for recovery, and pay via crypto if you want true anonymity. And even then there are other methods of anonymous or untraceable secure email that may be better than Proton mail (such as self hosted).
But for most users like myself, if you're not looking for anonyminity then Proton is fine as is. My email address is my name and I use it to keep my emails secure and not snooped on by Google etc.
Proton advertises itself as private, secure and encrypted. It does not claim to offer anonymity.
All valid points made in an academic setting. I think the general consensus, and the points other users are trying to make, involve more transparency and proper presenting of the facts in their statements. I have parroted the "oh you should try proton, they're more private and secure" to other people. This is a factual but misleading statement without the nuance of higher OPSEC fundamentals.
Just look at their main landing page for proton mail.
Proton Mail's end-to-end encryption and zero-access encryption ensure only you can see your emails. Not even Proton can view the content of your emails and attachments.
Proton Mail protects you from these digital spies and prevents companies from monitoring you.
your data is protected by some of the world's strictest privacy laws.
From newsrooms, activists, and international organizations to academics, Nobel Prize winners, and movie characters, Proton Mail is the trusted choice for secure and private communication. Join over 100 million people worldwide who believe their online privacy is worth protecting.
A common user will look at this and believe that by just having this account, they will be protected. There is no asterisk* beside e-mail recovery explaining the dangers of linking to another e-mail. In fact, a lot of their services promote linking e-mail because you can't use third party verification if you haven't setup your recovery e-mail and/or cell phone verification. I ran into this trying to help an older relative who's paranoid about online accounts, ended up being more hoops and they were dissuaded because it always come down to "enter more information to continue...privately ;)"
The front landing page should have a section explaining everything that's being said here with vpn's, alternative e-mails, and how to really protect yourself with anonymity. To a lot of people, Private+Secure=Anonymous. It's not accurate, but unless you already know the things you have to do to protect your identity, it's not very clear on what the average person should do.
Proton is the only one I know of who takes mailed cash.
This was all an opsec problem. And not even an “exposed my ip address because a software bug leaked it” it was an “here’s my usual email address in case I get locked out”.
The cops didn't need to break into proton email. They just asked the backup email address for that stuff.
Proton is the only one I know of who takes mailed cash.
Proton accepts payments via postal mail you mean ? Posteo and mailbox.org do that.
All the commenters suggesting that Proton is just a company and would always give in to legal requests and all other companies and any email provider would do the same, here's some more to add. Yesterday I saw a now invalid toot comment from ProtonPrivacy on Mastodon Social where they wrote that it was Apple who was to blame and that Proton gave the recovery email address only because this was a case of a terrorism suspect suggesting that if that (terrorism) was not the case they would not have given in to the request. Today their comment sadly gives a 404 error. Searching a bit further this article comes up mentioning Proton and Wire :
In the new resolution, the National Audience judge recalls that in January, in a judicial report he issued on the case, he highlighted a conversation from July 12th and 13th, 2020, about the king's visits, which was included in the Tsunami investigative evidence, and of which he admits that until that point he had not made reference in his investigation which extends over the period from 2016 to 2022. Specifically, one of the people under investigation, the Girona businessperson Josep Campmajó, spoke to the figure named Xuxu Rondinaire, with profile @marietadelulllviu, about mobilizations in 2019, using the Wire messenger app. The judge has asked for the identification of this person, information now obtained by the Civil Guard, which details that they used Europol to ask the Swiss authorities for the Wire firm to identify the person behind this pseudonym, with a profile that is also used in Proton Mail, an encrypted email system. In the police cooperation form requesting the information, the Spanish officers indicate to the Swiss authorities that the investigation is for the crime of terrorism.
@lemmyreader Yes, the name/address of the terrorism suspect was actually given to police by Apple, not Proton. The terror suspect added their real-life Apple email as an optional recovery address in Proton Mail. Proton can't decrypt data, but in terror cases Swiss courts can obtain recovery email.
So proton will only give users' information to governments if the government calls the user a terrorist. Good thing governments don't just throw that word around willy-nilly!
Proton is a service provider, not your confederate.
Proton should look who was asking the disclosure. He's a known far-right judge that opens cases like beer cans. And the "terrorist" group is marked as such because someone had a heart attack the same day there were protests in Catalonia.
Does it matter? He's still a judge with a judge's authority. If their policy is to obey the law then the political views of the judge don't change the fact that his order was lawful.
i fucking knew it.
Are there any email solutions that are actually private?
No, as email isn't private