this post was submitted on 25 Mar 2024
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Reading about the current events got me looking into the history of Palestine and Israel, and I noticed a lot of Israel's politicians (like Yitzhak Shamir, Menachem Begin, and Ariel Sharon to name a few) were Zionist terrorists (using the word literally, not subjectively) since before the establishment of Israel. The groups they belonged to, like Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi have been designated terrorist organizations by the United Nations, British, and United States governments, and

Albert Einstein, in a letter to The New York Times in 1948, compared Irgun and its successor Herut party to "Nazi and Fascist parties" and described it as a "terrorist, right wing, chauvinist organization".

The Zionists have explained their view as follows:

Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man."

and

Late in 1940, Lehi, having identified a common interest between the intentions of the new German order and Jewish national aspirations, proposed forming an alliance in World War II with Nazi Germany.[22] The organization offered cooperation in the following terms: Lehi would rebel against the British, while Germany would recognize an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel, and all Jews leaving their homes in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions, could enter Palestine with no restriction of numbers.[32] Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik went to Beirut to meet German official Werner Otto von Hentig. The Lehi documents outlined that its rule would be authoritarian and indicated similarities between the organization and Nazis.

It just gets worse the more you look into it, but it does give important context to the current genocide in Gaza, and to the decades old conflict in general.

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[–] [email protected] 95 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (4 children)

Agreed. I find the people in my life who blindly support Israel know nothing of the history of Zionism prior to 1948 and think Palestine was given to Israel just because of the holocaust, almost universally omitting that there were already people there and the responsibility of all western governments (I’m considering Russia “west” here) in the oppression of Jews in the years leading up to, and after, the holocaust.

The Behind the Bastards episode on Bibi Netanyahu talked about how he really got his start in the US as a lobbyist for the state of Israel and the media blitz Israel utilized to get both American parties to unconditionally support Israel. Most Americans are just propagandized af.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 7 months ago

oh no are you criticizing something a Jewish person did?! You are a anti-Semitic Nazi!! of course S/

[–] [email protected] 20 points 7 months ago

Philly isn’t sending their best.

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 7 months ago

My favorite Israeli history tidbit is how their terror cells assassinated one of the guys trying to negotiate a peaceful way out of the violence creating the state of Israel caused because they were (wrongly, it turns out) afraid that the official government would try to take a peaceful solution to the conflict which might have jeopardized the creation of the ethnostate.

Bernadotte had previously gained international renown for negotiating the release of thousands of Nazi concentration camp prisoners including hundreds of interred Jewish people.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 7 months ago (3 children)

You should have continued citing your sources to have complete picture and correct historical context, not picking and choosing since it creates distorted picture:

Believing that Nazi Germany was a lesser enemy of the Jews than Britain, Lehi twice attempted to form an alliance with the Nazis, proposing a Jewish state based on "nationalist and totalitarian principles, and linked to the German Reich by an alliance".[22][23] After Stern's death in 1942, the new leadership of Lehi began to move towards support for Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union[17] and the ideology of National Bolshevism, which was considered an amalgam of both right and left.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I guess, yea.

Lehi supported both Hitler and Stalin.

You're right, that does make the picture more complete!

[–] [email protected] 6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

To add even more context, Lehi was an offshoot of Irgun which was an extremist offshoot of Haganah. They had less than 300 members compared to Haganah's 20,000.

Their ideology probably isn't an accurate representation of all the politicians you mentioned except Yitzhak Shamir who was a leader of Lehi and became a prime minister of Israel 40 years later which is a bit weird.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

ideology of National Bolshevism

That's just nazis calling themselves "socialists", the same way nazis call themselves "national socialists" while actively killing socialists.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Abolishing private ownership of the means of production is definitionally left, so I don’t know who would consider it an “amalgam of both right and left” 😂

Unlike in the UK where Jews were considered second-class citizens, or in Nazi Germany where they were being ethnically cleaned & genocided, the Soviet Union had Jews among the Communist party ranks, including the politburo. There were Jewish Bolsheviks in the Communist revolution, so they’d been there from the start.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Abolishing private ownership of the means of production is definitionally left, so I don’t know who would consider it an “amalgam of both right and left” 😂

Maybe because Ultranationalism is very much a far right aspect of fascism?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 7 months ago (6 children)

Sure, but I don’t see the relevance.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Think you didn't read it thoroughly enough. That text is talking about national "bolsheviks", so just nazis.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 7 months ago

Yeah it was about the USSR and about Nazbols, but I only noticed the USSR part on first reading.

Anyway Nazbol shitstains always seem to pop up at the fringes to prey on baby leftists. Caleb Maupin’s little cryptofash cult infested BreadTube for a while, seemingly collapsed in a sex scandal, but still somehow seems to skulk about: https://cpiusa.org/

[–] [email protected] 24 points 7 months ago

If I recall correctly, the Hagana, Irgun and Lehi brigade eventually became the modern day IDF (literally). Those Nazi worshippers today are an important cultural aspect of Israel, in the form of helping to brainwash Israeli youth, and they're also remembered as heroes by Israel (and 'remembered' as in the very same terrorists back then who are still alive today are remembered. This wasn't so long ago that it's beyond living memory). Israelis also usually go out and protest any time a member of the IDF is on trial for murdering a Palestinian.

I've basically always thought it would be a funny solution to everyone's gripe with Hamas to just give them new branding as well and voila, problem solved.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 7 months ago

This is kind of how I became a socialist.

Did a mission trip to Nicaragua when I was young, got home and wondered why the country was so fucked up.

"Oh, it's literally entirely America's fault, intentional, and their exact strategy for foreign relations which is just imperialism."

[–] [email protected] 18 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Isn't zionism the result of some dumb dudes imagination

[–] [email protected] 30 points 7 months ago

arguably, that's every country, philosophy, nationality, religion, paradigm, law and ethnicity.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 7 months ago (10 children)

Would OP please consider posting this to politics?

[–] [email protected] 15 points 7 months ago (3 children)

You could do so yourself but I understand not wanting to as this would quickly turn your inbox into a trash fire for a long time depending of which politics community you post it to and who is federated with who.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 months ago

I’m 54. When people ask my opinion of this war, I change the subject. I’m not proud of that, but I’ve seen this war more than once.

I have strong opinions about many things, but I’ve seen what this particular war does and I’ve learnt there’s no winning it. I donate to Gaza, but nothing I can say will change the horror the latest flare up of this war will bring. Im sorry.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

It's interesting as well to look into the history of the yishuv, and why jews concluded that they needed a country of their own. Something their muslim countrymen were more than willing to put a genocide on them to prevent

[–] [email protected] 16 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

The Atlanticist Jewish settlers are racist a. f. and treat the indigenous Semitic Jews like shit, while LARPing as indigenous themselves. They treat the indigenous Semitic Christians like shit, too. And they claim that the indigenous Semitic Muslims are foreigners. But largely the indigenous Christians & Muslims came from indigenous Jews converting to Christianity & Islam generations ago.

Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts, new study asserts

The new research underscores an emerging consensus that wandering Jewish men, from the Near East, established a mosaic of small Jewish communities—first in Italy and then scattered throughout Europe, often taking on local gentile wives and raising their children as Jews.

Israel’s DNA wars: Forbidden tests

Tracing your ancestral DNA is a popular activity throughout the world, companies offering home testing kits promise to uncover your geographic origins for a small fee. A Jewish TikToker took the test and found he had heritage in different parts of Europe, but in his results there was no trace of Levantine origins. A cool new thing to tell his friends about, however, he points out that if he was from Israel this test would be illegal. We delve into why Israel restricts tracing your ancestors DNA.

Edit to add: From what little I understand, even within the Jewish immigrants there’s a caste system between the Ashkenazi, Shepardi, Mizrahi, etc. And IIRC the Soviet Ashkenazi immigrants tend not to get into high political or economic positions compared to other Ashkenazi. Israel Admits Targeting Ethiopian Jews for Compulsory Contraception

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

You need to expand on this claim. Yishuv, from my understanding, is the generation of Jews in Palestine before the formation of Israel. I’m not sure what point you’re making.

The whole story of Zionism pushing the idea of a country “of their own” and destined as a Jewish homeland predates the riots and conflicts that arose from increased Jewish settlement (and literal smuggling) in the area, because of Zionism, and nations like Britain playing up the idea of a promised Jewish homeland with the Balfour declaration for political purposes, and then dropping it when WW1 was over.

The yishuv living in relative peace prior to increased migration from people who believe fundamentally that this was their land is the story of human migration patterns causing strife that has happened throughout history in literally all corners of the world and is a very poor justification for why one group deserves their “ideal” homeland over another.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Well, if we start from the 'living in relative peace' part during during the latter century of the Ottoman empire, one can get quite a clear picture on how we arrived here today. It takes around 3 minutes.

During the Ottoman empire, jews were a small and dispersed minority living under laws that were, in large, inspired on islamic sharia. Although there were regions and periods of time where this was less enforced, it still meant that they would always be second class citizens, or worse. For example: they weren't allowed to build or repair synagogues, could not carry guns or ride horses, had to pay a special tax, etc...

So they were living in relative peace as long as they put up with the systemic discrimination (and the occasional local sectarian massacre but hey, it was the 19th century after all).

So we jump forward to the 1850-1870's and reforms are ongoing to modernize the empire and this came with a lot of the systemic discrimination being removed, moving towards a more secular state with the different religious communities given self-government wrt religious laws. Finally light at the end of the tunnel for the Ottoman jews, right? Well, sucked to be them as in 1876 Turkish nationalists seized power, abolished parliament and installed a new sultan which was a pan-Islamist and sought to re-consolidate the people of his empire under islam. (Btw, the Turkish nationalists would later go on to purge their land by doing multiple genocides, some still ongoing).

So this is where zionism picks up, with Ottoman jews seeing the future darken and the idea growing that they should unite in one place. This led to a lot of jewish immigrants moving into (modern day) Palestine starting around 1880 towards this goal, with the zionist idea picking up around the world, gaining more and more steam and here we are, 2024 and jews and muslims are still fighting over it.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 7 months ago (8 children)

Zionism was not started by Ottoman Jews, which were a very, very small minority in Palestine. The grandfather of Zionism was an Austro-Hungarian, Theodor Herzl. Before that there was a proto Zionist movement the Hovevei Zion which was created in response to pograms in the Russian empire. The Zionist movement was entirely created as a response to the treatment of European Jews by European powers.

Living under sharia law and being treated as a second-class citizen (which all non-Muslims were) certainly was not ideal for Palestinian Jews, but hundreds of thousands of European Jews did not start streaming into Palestine because of that.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Haganah actually fought against Irgun and Lehi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saison

"The Haganah, the largest Yishuv paramilitary, was a Labor Zionist organization; on occasion, it partook in military action (such as during The Saison) against certain radical right-wing Jewish political opponents and militant groups, sometimes in cooperation with the British Mandate administration."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Zionism#History

And the Irgun split from Haganah, because they were presumably too defensive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah#1931_Irgun_split

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