Today I Learned
What did you learn today? Share it with us!
We learn something new every day. This is a community dedicated to informing each other and helping to spread knowledge.
The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:
Rules (interactive)
Rule 1- All posts must begin with TIL. Linking to a source of info is optional, but highly recommended as it helps to spark discussion.
** Posts must be about an actual fact that you have learned, but it doesn't matter if you learned it today. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.**
Rule 2- Your post subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.
Your post subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.
Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.
Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.
Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.
That's it.
Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.
Posts and comments which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.
Rule 6- Regarding non-TIL posts.
Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-TIL posts using the [META] tag on your post title.
Rule 7- You can't harass or disturb other members.
If you vocally harass or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.
Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.
For further explanation, clarification and feedback about this rule, you may follow this link.
Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.
Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.
Let everyone have their own content.
Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.
Unless included in our Whitelist for Bots, your bot will not be allowed to participate in this community. To have your bot whitelisted, please contact the moderators for a short review.
Partnered Communities
You can view our partnered communities list by following this link. To partner with our community and be included, you are free to message the moderators or comment on a pinned post.
Community Moderation
For inquiry on becoming a moderator of this community, you may comment on the pinned post of the time, or simply shoot a message to the current moderators.
view the rest of the comments
There is some nuance here. Smoot-Hawley didn't cause the great depression, and there a lot of economists who say it didn't have that much of an effect at all.
Tarriffs can have some useful effects when used for protectionism, diplomatic coercion, or trade barrier reduction coercion. However, Trump's tariffs are way dumber than anything that came before, because he's trying to do all three of these at once. All of these have conflicting effects on each other, and it is literally impossible to design a tariff strategy that can accomplish all three, since raising a tariff for one purpose means that you need to lower tariffs for other purposes. All he's doing by raising across the board is causing instability in the economy and convincing all partners to ditch the US.
All he's doing is exactly what Putin wants. Systematically isolating and weakening America while weakening the West at large and any other competing countries to his power and new accumulation of wealth.
Source? To my knowledge Smoot-Hawley is pretty widely regarded as the worst possible move at the worst possible time. Protectionism doesn't work when domestic purchasing power is already collapsing. Agreed on the rest though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%E2%80%93Hawley_Tariff_Act
yeah maybe my nuance leaned too much to the no side, but I wanted to explain tariffs a bit. Trump tariffs are not protectionism or coercion, they're just stupid.
I was thinking about the protectionism though… like in order for the tariff to work, the us would have to also manufacture the good that is being tariffed. But we don’t produce a lot here…and also even if we did… i guarantee the us business would jack up the prices to be competitive with the foreign price After tariffs and pocket the money. Making the whole thing moot.
The "protectionism" falls flat the moment you consider that the tariffs blanket all goods. If you want to dramatically expand American industry, you don't start by raising the price of steel and raw materials.
Yea no matter how you slice it, there are no good use of tariffs, and if one were to insist, then it would only be like just barley enough to push up the price above parity, and only on very select items. But then if the other country does it back it goes in favor to the nation that is more industrial.
Correct! That's what Cavallo et al found when the Trump administration tariffed China in 2018. US profit margins decreased on both imports AND exports, while China's remained largely unchanged.
According to their analysis, American tariffs hurt Americans more than literally anyone else.
Fun fact, the Trump Administration cited Cavallo et al as supporting evidence for their tariff calculations.
The soybean tariffs, china found other countries quite quickly into counter the tariffs, and they largely abandoned the US of soybeans export
Yeah, sorry to say you were pretty off base friend. Smoot-Hawley didn't start the fire, but it poured fuel all over the flames and locked the firemen out of the building.
Friedman was an advisor to Reagan and Thatcher. He was a libertarian who genuinely believed that economic prosperity hinged almost entirely on just printing more money. His economic theories are all over the place, but even he acknowledges that tariffs generally don't work:
I think you can make a very good argument that the Smoot Hawley tarrifs were the main cause of Great Depression
"both sides" but the two sides are "it was bad" and "it was disastrously bad"
Most people here love blaming Stalin for more than he is responsible for. The Soviet famine, was a global famine, and its roots are in this Smoot Hawley tariff act. Stalin gets blamed for upholding communist principles instead of submitting to Kulak farmer extortionist pricing. But he was also saddled with US pressure to repay debts with food. The tariff origins are that throughout the world, reciprocal tariffs meant not growing any surplus food, because you couldn't sell it abroad, and then making too much food just made prices lower. A bit of a drought somewhere, and FUBAR.
This is what is funny for me. I would like tariffs to discourage trade with countries that have less democracy, rights for its citizens, and high income disparity (which unfortunately we are not a paragon of currently) and encourage trade with countries that are the reverse of that.
No one thing triggered it but the tarifs contributed almost as much as the out of control stock market. All the controls put in place to prevent this have been changed. So stupid tarifs(Are there any other kind) and a unregulated market system has us primed for some serious times.
There are some that work in order to protect national interests, mainly local producers and services. Whether they are stupid or not depends on implementation and end results
But these local companies just jack up their price to be competitive to the new tariffed foreign price and pocket the money.
Dunno, what usually happens without tariffs is that the bigger multinational companies drive the prices so low as to destroy local competition, after that they jack up the prices
There is good economic theory that Smoot Hawley actually was responsible for the initial bank failures that led to the Great Depression.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOvWS_xzRbc
Can skip to about 15 minutes into if ya want.
Europe has a some tariffs on Chinese EV brands. The reason is that they get subsidized by their government and can easily dump them on our markets, ruining our own industries. The tariff calculation is based on what we think those subsidies are and how to make it fair compared to our prices.