this post was submitted on 31 Jan 2025
257 points (77.9% liked)
Memes
46406 readers
2505 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
SWCC introduced controlled markets, the point about Dialectics is that it isn't accurate to call them "Capitalist elements." China already considers itself Socialist, it hopes to transition to later stages of Socialist development. The claim you're drawing from, that China plans to be a "developed Socialist country by 20XX" is from the standpoint of a country that considers itself Socialist already. We can talk more about SWCC if you want, and how a Socialist Market Economy doesn't at all function as a Capitalist economy even if it has markets, but that's not the main point here.
I really want to ask, what claim about the USSR is revisionist? That millions were counted as purged, but purges don't mean execution? That the KGB's internal documentation indicates 700,000 were condemned to death, not 12 million like Conquest states, and further that the Soviet justice system frequently didn't actually execute, just rehabilitate? That there were real assassinations and reasons calling for the Great Purge, like Trotskyist factions working to sabotage factories?
I never once denied that many people were executed. This is undeniable fact, of course it is. However, this was not a case of a rogue state murdering 12 million innocent people, and portraying it as such is part of Western distortion. If you don't want to continue, I'd suggest digging more into the subject than Wikipedia alone, there are many books on the subject based on archival evidence.
What makes a system capitalist if not markets, private ownership, and wage labor? Self-identification does not determine economic reality.
The revisionism I'm referring to is: Your claim that the Soviet justice system "frequently didn't actually execute" those sentenced to death is false. Archival NKVD data shows that most of the 700,000 sentenced to death were executed.
Your claim that the purges were primarily about “Trotskyists". The Great Purge targeted high-ranking Party officials, innocent civilians, and the Red Army, NOT just saboteurs. E.g., Stalin purged 80% of his military leadership before WW2. Were all of them traitors?
If Soviet archives themselves acknowledge hundreds of thousands of executions, how is that a “Western lie"? If the KGB’s own documents contradict Stalinist apologists, why should we trust modern revisionists instead?
I have said it before, a system is determined by that which is Primary in it. This is Dialectical and Historical Matetialism. If 90% of the economy is public but it has 10% markets, is this Capitalist, or Socialist? What about 50/50? If we ask Marx, some countries were Capitalist even before markets had overtaken 50% of production. This is because Markets were primary in the Capitalist mode of production. In China, markets are not primary, public ownership and planning is.
As for the claim of revisionism, where are you getting the archival evidence that the vast majority were in fact executed? I'd like to see the numbers you found, personally, but moreover you just admitted that not all of them were killed. Just 2 comments ago you were saying millions were killed, you keep moving goal posts to call me a liar without acknowledging that you were just wrong, and willing to accept whatever number you wanted.
As for the purges, many weren't "traitors" outright. Many were corrupt, criminals, inefficient, etc. That's why of the millions purged, only a fraction were actually condemned to death, most were just expelled from the party. Some were members of the White Army that were allowed in government until the purges. Many were legitimate fascist infiltrators friendly to the Nazis, who had risen to power in Nazi Germany and were heavily involved with wrecking the Soviet State.
So far, the only "revisionism" seems to be your understanding of the word "frequently" to mean what I assume you interpreted as "overwhelming majority," and not, you know, often enough to not be insignificant in the greater context. One of the problems you have that gets in the way of your own understanding is a seemingly permanent wish to take my words in the worst way possible, rather than trying to reach an understanding or consensus. Whenever there can possible be percieved a gray area in my words, you take it to the extreme, which is generally unhelpful.
Any million number was referring to the greater Stalinist terror not explicitly the purges. That was my mistake (which is a direct result of you arguing me towards tiredness if i might say).
From the Wikipedia article i initially cited on the graves found:
I don't always want to do that, you denying the facts leads me to.
You don't have to argue with me, that's your choice. Further, I don't know what you mean by the "Stalinist Terror" specifically, we were talking about the Great Purge itself.
Your quoted text doesn't contradict me either. They say it is "likely" that more than 680,000 were executed, but there's nothing confirmed. Again, these figures use the condemnation to death figures, not the total killing figures. For clarity, my stance is that the total number of those killed is in the several hundreds of thousands, but not millions, not that only a few people were killed. Even if all 680,000 were killed, that still fits what I have actually said, you've been putting words in my mouth. Moreover, you'll want to read this excerpt from the book The Triumph of Evil, specifically page 74:
This is why relying exclusively on Wikipedia is silly, do some actual reading. A solid rule of thumb with respect to any Wikipedia article on enemies of the US is to look at where the figures and sources come from and analyze them yourself, as you can see Wikipedia made the error of conflating condemnations with executions.
Ok, so we agree in the end other than on the point of whether those 700k+ people were killed or not - at least you seem to think they weren't.
It's a stalemate.
I told you, I think it's highly unlikely that more than 700,000 were killed, and archival evidence supports that number being lower. We unfortunately will likely never know the true number, but in the end this number is far below the 12 million often recited. If all 700,000 truly did die, then that's within the bounds of what I think happened.
That's what I mean by you being uncharitable towards me almost intentionally. I never once said that there weren't excesses or that nobody died, the figure I was arguing against was the "millions" you walked back. I think if you were focused on reaching an understanding, rather than immediately framing me as some entirely unreasonable person that thinks Stalin was a perfect saint free from sin, we would be having much shorter convos.
Either way, you should keep reading Blackshirts, evidently it seems you think it's good enough to recommend to others, so I think you'll be very surprised to learn that MLs don't think the USSR was a perfect wonderland paradise. I honestly think it could have been close by this point had it not fallen, but that's just dreaming at this point and sadly we have the Russian Federation, and the 7 million people who died due to the re-introduction of Capitalism.
I'll try my best in the future.
Wdym by "think it's good enough to recommend to others"? I haven't recommended it to anyone i know. Unless you're talking about that one thread yesterday. In that case, i do plan to finish it as soon as my exams are done