this post was submitted on 14 Nov 2024
40 points (66.4% liked)
Memes
45655 readers
1604 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
The Democrats, in the eyes of liberals, can only be failed, they cannot fail of their own accord. Now, more than ever, is a good time to start reading theory, as many liberals are disaffected by the US election. I wrote an introductory reading list for Marxism in case anyone wants one.
This wasn't the Democrats being failed, it was the whole country being failed. It wasn't about voting for the Democrats, it was about voting against Donald Trump, and there was only one way to effectively do that. Everyone who refused to do that got exactly what they voted for with Trump, whatever ends up happening, but rather than accepting that maybe this was the worst option, they're just posting memes about how everyone didn't push back against the democrats hard enough, so I doubt it'll sink in.
Do you think continuing the slide into fascism as Capitalism continues to decay is a good thing? If not, how do you plan on stopping it?
The fact of the matter is that the Democrats ran to the right of Biden in 2020 and committed fully to genocide. They lost the support they had, and they lost enough to lose the popular vote as well as electoral college. This was a massive failure, and if your plan was simply to vote Dem and hope for the best, then it's clear that your plan A failed. What's your plan B?
Plan B has a stink on it. We are calling it Plan D now.
Fair enough. What's Plan D?
What's yours? Since letting Trump get elected was apparently Step 1, what's Step 2? Where are we going now? Come on, fill us in.
Or, alternately, stop putting words in other peoples' mouths and consider that what we have now is worse for everyone than the alternative would have been.
I didn't get Trump elected, lol. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't. The election isn't a part of any Leftist's plans.
The answer is revolution, as it always has been, and that starts with organizing. I've even made an introductory Marxist reading list that has gotten several people to read theory, and hopefully join Leftists in organizing. Yes, I did link it at the beginning of this convo, and no, you didn't click it, otherwise you'd know what my plan is because I spell it out.
What's your plan? Endlessly critique on Lemmy and blame voters for the failures of the DNC?
And this right here is our unresolvable ideological difference. You refuse to consider that by not voting for the better option, you're partially responsible for what we have now. Good luck with your revolution, I guess. We have nothing else to discuss.
You seem to be assuming that they didn't vote for no apparent reason.
I don't care if they did or didn't; I find them to be completely insufferable and have no desire to engage with them further.
Why? Because you made up a bunch of shit about them and then got mad about it?
The app I was using was making it look like everything I was replying to was from the same poster, when in fact it was not. I've already apologized for that error.
What, exactly, is insufferable about me asking you what your plan is when you come attacking me of your own volition? It wasn't like I reached out to you, you whined and left when you couldn't articulate a point yet I could and did.
Your 'plan' is not a plan so much as a general set of vague guidelines. My 'plan', with the same degree of validity, is to (continue to) support my local community, work towards conversions to better voting systems, and try to weather the next four years while continuing to take a pragmatist's stance on political candidates.
What I find insufferable about you and the majority of the vocal folk who share your views are that you don't seem interested in actually having a conversation about your views. You're all quite ready to put words in other peoples' mouths and adopt a holier-than-thou attitude towards everyone, while not considering that many of us might share a lot of your views if you weren't so damn militant about everything. We probably have quite a lot in common, but painting everyone who isn't a marxist as a capitalist / fascist isn't helping your cause, not in the slightest.
This will be the last thing I say here, so feel free to get your last word in.
My plan is a plan, revolution has clear requirements and work do be done, organizations to be built and class awareness to be raised. I don't know what you mean by that as "guidelines."
Secondly, "supporting your community," while noble, is vague and shapeless. What does that look like? How do you work towards better voting systems, and how do you know they are sufficient to bring about change? Is this a situation where you just think really hard about something and hope it magically manifests, or is this a real, practical plan? These questions should all be able to be answered by you in a heartbeat, and if not, your plan does not have the same degree of validity. I encourage you to poke and prod at what I espouse. I also take what I believe to be a pragmatist's approach - after all, I believe what you advocate thus far is far too difficult to accomplish and far too little to accomplish much even if it did come to pass.
Thirdly, you claim I am not willing to have a conversation about my views. Since when? You can check my comment history, it is filled with meaningful conversation regarding the myriad nuances, complexities, difficulties, and strengths of Marxism. When were you willing to have a discussion? You opened a conversation where I said the Democrats failed to garner support with condemnation of my personal character, and refused to acknowledge my points on the necessity of working towards a practical solution rather than hoping the Democrats can win. Evidently, that still remains your tactic, because you only said "voting reform" is necessary.
I never once painted you as a Capitalist, you're likely a proletarian like most of us. I never once called you a fascist, either.
I do believe that if you took the advice I gave in the beginning, you'd likely agree with my reading list, and even become a Communist by the end of it. What I don't believe is that you're in a mindset to take that advice, nor do I believe you ever have been in this conversation. You opened it with personal attacks when I tried to direct the conversation towards practical actions, and I think that's because taking action scares you.
I hope you'll read theory, I do think you'd agree with it if you would be willing to do so, but I don't think you are, yet. If, on the off-chance you do decide, I'm open to answer any questions you might have. I don't know everything about Marxism, not by a long-shot, but I'm very confident in what I do talk about because I refrain from talking about what I don't know.
I said I wasn't going to reply again, and I'm going to mostly stick to that, but I do want to issue a self-correction for one thing.
I was reading this thread on an app that doesn't do a good job of differentiating different posters, and I was replying to a few different people and (incorrectly) attributing some of the more inflammatory things I was reading to you. Now that I'm looking at it on a PC, I can see that it was actually multiple people, so I apologize for that. Of the people I was replying to, you were the least objectionable, but we still have fundamental differences of opinion that we will not be able to resolve here.
I appreciate your apology, it does explain quite a few of what I percieved as erratic and irrational antagonisms. I will state that had you not come in, intentionally or not, by directly assaulting my character, I would have generally been far more charitable.
I know you said you don't wish to reply, and if not that's fine and I understand. However, given that we have clarified that the hostility in this conversation was based on a fundamental misunderstanding in tone and intent, why not talk about our ideas, like you said you wanted? We can start fresh.
What about our difference in opinion is so fundamental that we can't come to some level of agreement? Again, I'll state that, regardless of the actions of individual voters, whether or not these voters are mobilized in general depends most heavily on the campaigns run by the two parties. The changes in the 2024 Harris Campaign compared to the successful Biden 2020 campaign can at least be considered a large determining factor in the changes in voting sway, no?
Secondly, I do think it's important to analyze if voting reform would actually meaningfully change society, and if it's even feasible to achieve without revolution in the first place. Marxists have very good reasons to be revolutionary exclusively.
The only circumstance under which I would support a revolution is if the government simply ceases to function (which it may, now, under Trump - who knows? But I don't wish to bank on that possibility, nor do I wish to cause a non-functioning government simply to justify a revolution; that's no better than Republicans grinding everything to a standstill then claiming that their ability to do so is evidence that the government isn't working.) The pragmatic stance is to vote for the better of the candidates who can reasonably win elections while directing effort towards changing the reasons why we only have two candidates to choose from.
Revolution that isn't supported by the majority of people is simply imposing a viewpoint on people who do not want it, and even if it would ultimately be better for them in the long run, it's no better than Christian Nationalists trying to impose their viewpoint on everyone else.
If it is supported by the majority of people, it should be able to be resolved via the democratic process. What's stopping that right now is the two-party system that we're stuck in, and that can't be resolved without voting reform, so that's where I'm choosing to direct my efforts. It's not that it will single-handedly change society, but it's the first step in a process that will, theoretically, allow new, more progressive and left-leaning parties to rise to relevance.
There have been multiple states that have had ranked-choice voting on their ballots (including mine), but they largely haven't passed, so I would argue that yes, it is feasible to achieve it without revolution, but thus far it seems that people don't understand why it's needed (and therefore it's a matter of getting the word out and raising awareness), or they simply disagree with it and want to maintain the status quo (and if that's honestly the majority opinion, and it's not just a perception or information problem, then so be it - that just means that we're in a minority and we shouldn't be forcing the majority to bend to our viewpoint any more than they should be forcing us to bend to theirs.).
Look, I think we agree on a lot of things. I support many socialist views; capitalism is an awful system, corporate greed and income inequality and money in politics are some of the biggest problems with society and some of the biggest inhibitors to change. However, I don't think communism is a viable solution. In my opinion, the ideal solution would still allow accumulation of personal wealth, but would distribute wealth based on how much good a person has brought to society, rather than on how much of a sociopath they're willing to be to get it. I believe most people are greedy and I believe most people are motivated by personal gain moreso than anything else. Not everyone, obviously, but most people, and I think the only way we're going to get people to abandon the 'Fuck you, got mine' attitude is by rewarding behaviors we want to reinforce, which capitalism obviously does not do.
If we take your "revolution should only be supported if the government ceases to function" stance to its logical conclusion, that means you are against the American, French, Vietnamese, Cuban, Russian, and Chinese revolutions, right? Even if previous conditions were misery, because the government still functioned, they should have stuck with it? I don't agree that the pragmatic stance is to continue voting democrat, because disparity is rising and Capitalism is crumbling. Democrats will not support policies that could endanger their own power, and that extends to Capitalists. I think you confuse "pragmatic" for "easy."
Secondly, Marxists are revolutionary, not Blanquist. Revolution requires the support of the masses. Secondly, this revolutionary shift in power cannot be held at the ballot box, because the Capitalist State supports the bourgeoisie. The only candidates you can vote for and the only parties allowed anywhere near power are the ones that serve purely the interests of Capital. That's why not only is voting reform extremely difficult to get, but also would not change the necessity of revolution.
Thirdly, on your analysis of why voting reform like RCV is not more widespread, it isn't because it isn't popular. RCV is a carrot on a string, too small in scale to ever impact anything, but just close enough that you have hope for it. Even insidiously, achieving RCV nationwide still won't stop the inevitable crumbling of Capitalism! Many other nations have RCV and yet still have nothing but right-wing establishment parties in power, because RCV fundamentally doesn't enact change, it just sounds like it could.
Fourth, you make no mention of how or why you believe Communism to be "unviable," yet fully back a system where distribution is based on arbitrary "goodness" in society. Communists argue for practical, labor-time based economic planning that can be calculated, tracked, measured, and adjusted using real world technology, and moreso argue for doing so only in areas of industry that have already advanced to monopolist syndicates and can thus be centrally planned after being publicly owned. Where is this "goodness" you speak of calculated? By what measure?
Fifth, Humans are not inherently greedy, nor would that be a problem for Socialism and Communism in the first place. Rather, human ideas are shaped by their material conditions and their definite social relations, Capitalism highlights greed and rewards it more. The Base reinforces the Superstructure, ie the Mode of Production reinforces and projects the laws, culture, and values of society, which in turn reinforces the base, slightly changing each other over time as society develops and progresses. Humans will not appear so greedy in a publicly owned economy.
Ultimately, all of your criticisms of Communism are incredibly common for those who have not read theory, as all of the ones you raised specifically were already answered over a hundred years ago. More questions have been raised since then, of course, but I think you would gain a ton from reading the theory list I made, some highlights that directly answer your questions are:
Reform or Revolution
Wage Labor and Capital and Wages, Price and Profit
Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism
Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
The Principles of Communism
The State and Revolution
And as an added measure that isn't in my reading list, Prices in a Planned Economy for more information on what Marxists advocate for with respect to how to economically plan.
I think it's almost amazing how you were able to touch on many different common areas that have been thoroughly answered by Marxists over the years quite definitively, and I mean no offense by that. I really do recommend you give it a try.
You don't know who I voted for, and it doesn't matter. I could have voted De La Crúz, Stein, Oliver, Harris, Trump, any of them, and it would not have made a shred of difference, and unlike you, I have planned for that already. You still haven't told me your plan, so I guess I was right, it really is just to whine on Lemmy and blame voters for the tremendous and historic failure of the Democratic Party to connect even somewhat to the working masses and thus garner support.
In the future, when Capitalism has decayed further, you'll likely become radicalized and seek to understand this process, and I'll be right here.
Not letting Democrats run a Nazi candidate was step 1. Liberals failed that.
Should have pushed back like I did so Genocrats would have changed course before it was too late. Instead Blue MAGA condoned it all and silenced dissent.
This is the result of capitulating every demand because "But Trump".
Ironically "But Trump" is what got you Trump.
It's actually got us Trump twice now.
This type of rhetoric is why I and many others just cannot take you folks or your views seriously.
being taken seriously is like the last thing I want. The FBI agent assigned to me might have to actually do something.
Fr when I'm filling in my spreadsheet for the people I have to watch, it's a lot easier if everyone goes in column A or column B.
Column A is titled 'Radical speech but thinks that voting will change anything – no action required'.
Column B is 'Radical shitposter – maintain eyes, no immediate action required'.
The other columns, though – damn it's a lot of paperwork.
Column O, 'Organising their community, feeding people, and providing healthcare' is the worst. Luckily for me, the agency's action means they don't stay on the list for long so the paperwork is finite. I probably shouldn't be saying all this as it's top secret. But we do know what's up in our department.
Everyone always talks like defeating Trump in the election is the end-all be-all of the disussion. Voting Democrat and preventing Trump from taking the white house should have been an obvious step. It is not the best outcome for the election, nor is it the end of the ongoing decay of late-stage capitalism into wealth-based fascism, but all this whataboutism and strawmanning Democrat voters as believing Kamala was going to single-handedly save democracy is disingenous. It was never "Plan A". It was one minor, marginally better compromise in the collective of shit we should be doing.
What's non-wealth-based fascism?
Voting Kamala failed. The Democrats failed to run a campaign that won. That is in the past. What I am saying is that voting Democrat did not work, so I am asking what their plan actually is, if voting Dem wasn't plan A then what is?
Leftists already have a plan that isn't contingent on winning a presidential election. Do liberals?
No, they don’t. Liberals believe that voting democrat every four years and arguing with leftists on the internet is activism.
The Brunch Brigade, I call them.
That fits nicely because it's always people who have and will continue to have enough food in their belly that they can indulge in an extra meal while indulging in fantasies like 'one more election cycle, pleeeease, I trust them to stop murdering millions of innocent people, just one more election cycle and then they'll fix everything, pleeease'.
Just one more dem, one more election, one more liberal...
I wouldn't know. I'm not an American, and not a card-carrying liberal voter on my country.
What I do know is that this constant othering is how these problems were created in the first place. Spending time and energy building straw men on the Internet is creating enemies, not allies. If you are genuinely dedicated to spreading information and awareness, as your earlier post suggests, making assumptions and jumping down people's throats is hurting your cause, not helping it.
We are currently in the process of creating a larger divide in left-minded individuals, and I am unbelievably sick of it. As the right rapidly unifys, we seem to be learning nothing.
"Othering" is not the cause of problems of polarization, but sharpening of contradictions in decaying Capitalism. Wealth disparity is sky-high and only rapidly climbing. I don't see how I am "jumping down people's throats," I am very clearly saying that since voting Harris didn't work, there must be another plan, and I'm asking what that plan is.
Correct.
Exactly, by the Democrats.
Hence why people didn't vote for Democrats. They had no reason.
Do you think it was about voting democrats. You just think they should be able to do literally whatever they want, including genocide.
More like they're posting about how the Democrats should have listened when we were posting the same things before ethe election, but you not only willfully ignored us, you distanced yourself. Now that it over and we were right, you're mad at the messenger.