this post was submitted on 02 Aug 2024
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"jewish" isn't a race though
People discriminate against each other for all kinds of stupid reasons. Yeah, the word racism gets used for groups that aren't actually genetic in nature sometimes. Let's not be pedantic about the terminology used to describe discrimination against groups that have been the victims of genocide though.
There is a word for that though, bigot. Racism is effectively a subclass of bigotry that is more specific. If we have a word for it already we should use that instead.
thank you, this is what i was getting at
Racists make this argument so often it's tiresome, 'Jewish isn't a religion' always comes from the same idiots who say 'this person cant be trusted because they're a Jew, look their great grandmother was Jewish!'
And 'I'm not a racist, just a bigot!' What's even the point?
Oh and interesting side fact, bigot likely comes from the phrase 'by god' which was often used by religious hypocrites and became a byword for intensely religious hypocrites. It came into English during conflict between protestants and catholics - suggesting racism is a sub category of bigotry implies acceptance of the modern meaning derived through common use over time.. which is what you're trying to reject for the word antisemitism, kinda seems then that it's not a honest approach you're taking but have brought into logic from racists who are trying to find semantic cover for their hatred of a group of people based on traits they believe are biologically innate in that group.
I think bigots deserve the same level of disdain as racists and/or antisemites. If racist/racism has become a common and accepted terminology to describe people that hate based on a common trait other than race then I stand corrected. Sorry my attempt to clarify someone elses point has lead you to believe I hold hatred for any group based on their race, religion, or other inherited trait. And sorry if I walked into a talking point from racists, I tend not to interact with them online or offline.
If I hold hatred towards anyone it's bigots and racists. What I'll tell you I've witnessed is the racism against Ethiopian Jews by Israeli Jews when they fled to a country that was supposedly their promise land. So when trying to have an intelligent discussion about this topic I do think it's fair to state bigots in Ethiopia forced people of their own race out of the country only for those that fled to go and face racists in a country that supoosedly shared their religious values. I hope this clarifies why I thought the distinction might be worthwhile. I understand language is ever evolving but I think there is a distinction between the origin of a word that is hundreds of years old verses what is still listed in most dictionaries. Again I'm not rejecting the strong presence of antisemitism throughout the world, I'm saying I see it as a subclass of bigotry the same as racism. Also again, whether I call someone an antisemite or a bigot I'll hold the same level of disdain for them.
I can only out words on the internet and it up to you to believe them but I hope you understand I wasn't coming from a place of any form of bigotry.
i mean i'm against all religions, but i'm not going to let anyone call me a racist because of that
Well if you say there is "a trait in a group of peoples' character" then you should be called racist. This has nothing to do with being against religions.
so...if you condemn scientology, then you're a racist?
It's not about who you condemn, dude. It's about what exactly you condemn them about. That really shouldnt be such a complicated concept.
it's not complicated. "jewish" is not a race. simple
Sorry, I don't get your reference.
Do you mean he's not racist because Jewish isn't a race?
In other quotes, he's much more clear that he's talking about Israeli people, like with zionism.
“I’m certainly anti-Israeli and I’ve become anti-Semitic in as much as that you get a Jewish person in another country like England strongly supporting Zionism. I think they should see both sides. It’s the same old thing: we all know about Jews and the rest of it. There aren’t any non-Jewish publishers anywhere, they control the media—jolly clever thing to do—that’s why the president of the United States has to sell all this stuff to Israel.”
It definitely seems to depend on which aspect of Jewish or Israeli culture or stereotypes he has problems with.
For good reason of course, Jewish rights organizations talk about themselves as Jews rather than as Israelis.
Not exactly the funnest mud puddle to skip through.
fun fact: neo nazis refer to jewish people and brown people, as "mud people", and use the term as their rallying cry for whom they wish to rid the white race of
Secular Jews would likely disagree with that.
secular jews call themselves a race?
There's plenty of non-religious people who identify as Jewish, yes.
right. but the question was: according to secular jews, "Jewish" = "race"?
If not race, then what?
you can convert to judaism and literally become jewish, even though you weren't born into a jewish family. setting aside all the shit going on in politics right now, you cannot "decide" to become a different race
"Jewish" can describe race, ethnicity, culture, nationality, religion, or any combination of the above, depending on who's using the word and in what context.
in what context is jewish a race?
Since you seem to be hung on semantics, perhaps a definition is in order:
To the extent that "race" is even a real thing (I'm of the opinion that it's not a useful or productive way to categorize people), many people do classify themselves and others using that terminology, for good or ill. It would generally be in the context of biological heritage ("bloodlines," ew).
I wonder if @[email protected] would have something to add here.
I would personally prefer the word 'ethnicity' to 'race.' As far as I'm concerned, if you want to associate me with a race, it would be white. The problem is that a lot of white people don't see it that way. See Elon Musk saying "you have said the actual truth" to the guy who said that Jews were oppressing white people. But I'm not going to let those people get their way. I'm white.
I have all of the same privileges that come with being white in America that every other white person has and I share in the shameful responsibility white people need to take for racism, both institutional and personal. I really don't want to say I don't benefit from that unfairness or share that burden because that wouldn't be true.
So the terminally online could be considered a race with a certain perspective. Interesting.
(I don’t say this to diminish or reject the definition. I just find it interesting to think about.)
Though maybe as others point out, it might be an ethnicity?
really, it comes down to usage. science may not be able to pin down a "scientific" definition, and it absolutely is a construct--but isn't everything that isn't defined by a mathematical formula a "construct"?
so if we're stuck with using terms like "race" whether they're "real things" or not, then i think it's important to distinguish how they're used. i will not agree that "jewish" is a race in the same way that "african american" is a race, because although both groups face oppression, one of them is a choice, and the other isn't
though it has to be said, that according to judaism, if your mother is a jew, then you are too, whether you want to be or not. i call bullshit on that
hi @[email protected] !
Hello!
Only religious Judaism. Many Jews consider someone a Jew if they only have a Jewish father. Such as in the case of my daughter. I've yet to have anyone claim she isn't Jewish. I'm sure some Orthodox asshole would, but he'd say I wasn't Jewish either because I married a "shiksa," so...
gotta love those pesky socially constructed rules and regulations...
ethnic group
I've seen another individual argue that it is in fact a race due to bloodlines running back to the source. I've gotta say I've got some of that fresh-squeezed jew-blood and even though I wasn't really raised around any Jewish folk and clearly am not religiously Jewish I have been picked out by practicing individuals for having some of that blood in me. As well as others, who are like me and miserable mutts cast to roam the Earth forever being mystery meat =P!
Perhaps there's levels to this though? I mean with the bigotry. I am not saying it's all roses, cause it ain't. But I am saying maybe when we get to the extreme that we want to wipe individuals from the Earth whomever they are (and whomever is thinking this) that's when we really know we're in the wrong. Then again I would cruxify all sex-offenders. So eh, who am I to speak? A nobody on this issue, but one last thing - I've got friends who are ethnically Jewish who absolutely do not see themselves as white. And yes, I know Jewish folk come in all shapes and sizes.
(p.s. - I refer my quantity of Jewishness as "jew" because I am lower-case ethnically but not even by Jewish standards (paternal) related to anything minuetly Jewish. Not because I am a raging anti-semite.)
ah yes, the important distinctions, undercutting jewish peoples desire not to be targeted as a people, that "though" is every antisemites wet dream, it's encompasses and undermines all argument
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/are-jews-a-race/