this post was submitted on 25 Jul 2024
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What if ... there were no rich people?
Then there would be no reason to go above and beyond.
You're saying all human ambition is based on money-hunger and thankfully that is false.
Exactly.
Me: poor as fuck. Tries to be kind, be grateful. Grow food. Share. Fuckingfeedingpeoeple.
Billionaires: how do we make biofuel out of neualinked catatonic undesirables as a more humane way of genocide? fucking matrix milking machining people.
This is actually a real fucking thing. And, oh, heh, look, it's JD Vance and his puppet master, Peter Thiel, with the rest of the gang.
https://newrepublic.com/article/183971/jd-vance-weird-terrifying-techno-authoritarian-ideas
I'm definitely not rich. Not by a long shot. I might not be poor, but compared to the rich, I'm very poor.
I feel like, insane statements like "nobody will work if they don't earn money from it" or similar drivel is entirely derived from the rich asshole capitalists own minds. What they mean to say is that they wouldn't, and can't imagine anyone would want to work if not for the accumulation of wealth. They lack imagination.
The key differentiator is that us (relative) poors need to work to live. If we didn't need to work to live, many still would, simply to help others. I certainly would.
No, it’s just a tautology resulting from how work is defined. Anything you do on your own time (not paid) is by definition not work. It’s a hobby, a chore, volunteering, etc. By contrast, anything you’re paid to do but would stop doing if you stopped being paid is work.
Looking after a sick relative may feel a whole lot like work. The difference is that if you don’t do it, who will? Asking a stranger to care for your relative for free just isn’t done. That’s why it’s work if you’re a hired nurse but not work if it’s your relative and you do it for free.
You can do this exercise with anything. Go to a restaurant and you expect to pay for your food after you eat. Go to eat dinner at your mother-in-law’s place and you don’t expect to pay. In fact, she’d likely be baffled at best and insulted at worst if you tried to pay her for your meal. Cooking food for strangers is work, cooking food for friends and family is not.
Anyway, don’t you think there’s some validity to the original statement? Why would you expect strangers to cook for you and care for your sick relatives for free? Note that even if you’re not paying them but someone else (possibly the state) then it’s still work.
Work (verb): "be engaged in physical or mental activity in order to achieve a result; do work."
No mention of compensation or pay.
For your nurse example, I know nurses that would absolutely do it for free, they enjoy working with their patients and helping them.
For me, I work in IT, if I didn't need to make money to live, I would still do what I do without pay, simply to help others with their complex computer problems.
Just because you don't "get" it, and/or, can't understand it, doesn't mean it isn't something that many of us would take on. A lot of blue collar workers and even many white collar workers (especially non-owner/non-management types), just want to live a life that they can be proud of. We need to earn money to pay for the things that allow us to continue to live, but beyond that, couldn't give any less of a shit about money.
Your world view is flawed, your understanding of the collective consciousness of workers is incorrect.
The jobs that would have nobody working them, would be jobs that are generally horrible to do. Especially toxic work environments, usually due to bad management. Making people's lives horrible because you treat them like trash would be a death sentence, because if people don't need to work for you to live, and you treat them like human garbage, then you will have nobody working for you.
These principles are pretty well founded. There are communities that have survived with little to no money or transactions happening (mainly only when dealing with outsiders), where members of the community do some sort of work for the community (maybe farming, plumbing, electrical, construction, etc) with no direct compensation, and in return, they gain all the benefits of the community. Hot meals, a warm home, etc.
These communes have existed, usually they're associated with extreme isolation and other such conditions, but they take care of eachother without the need for any monetary system.
In many first world countries, the USA especially, people are isolated from eachother. Each person is so aggressively independent that a monetary system is basically a requirement to answer the question of "what's in it for me?" In a more community focused setting, you pay it forward at every step. You do whatever work for the people in the community, and the community at large "pays" you back with their services and hospitality. This is not a question, it is an expectation of such members of a community like that.
For my work, my "boss"/manager is basically setting up and managing systems that I can use to help people with their issues, so I can focus on what I'm good at. Aside from the money that changes hands because we all need to pay rent and buy food, our jobs wouldn't change under a system that has no monetary system. There's still a demand and we fulfill that demand as best we can.
We'll never get to the level of community we would need to get away from money systems unless that money system entirely crashes, and people keep doing their jobs for free to make sure that everything doesn't go down with the money system.
Our money system, with the global banks and fiat currency, is basically a bubble. It is obligated to continue to grow or it will collapse. I won't go into detail as to why, since this post is long enough, but needless to say, that kind of system is destined to fail since continual growth indefinitely is an unsustainable system. It's only a matter of time. One decent documentary I know of on the subject, for further learning, is called "money as debt". Take a look if you want to know more about our collective monetary systems. (Most of the world is using the same concepts and ideas in their money systems though that specific one, IIRC, is focused on the American money system)
What you’re talking about, with families, communes, or other small communities, IS STILL WORK. It might not be compensated with money but it is compensated, usually with social capital or reputation. I do things for you and then maybe some time in the future you return the favour. All money does is allow me to (pardon the pun) cash in that favour on my own terms and potentially with someone other than the person I originally worked for.
What’s the problem with these informal economies (favours for favours)? They do not scale! As soon as the community is large enough that not everyone knows each other (the networks grow too large) then you run into the problem of being unable to punish free riders. If you do a favour for uncle Ted and then later uncle Ted refuses to lift a finger for you, you can punish him by telling the rest of the family that he’s selfish. However, you walking into uncle Ted’s office and telling his boss (who doesn’t know you) about it is unlikely to go over well.
“If I didn’t need to make money to live” is a non-starter. If you built a huge society with free food, housing, health care, internet and all that for everyone (all needs met) then you’d get millions of people choosing to smoke cannabis and play video games all day. The only way to get “free everything” society to work is with extremely small groups where reputation and social capital stand in for monetary compensation.
Lastly, I need to make a point about the individual and their choice to work for free for others or not. Take the example of an artist (say, a digital painter). They may be happy to stream on Twitch and give away all the art they create for free (with their Patreon revenue covering their living expenses). However, how likely do you think they are to take on a huge commissioned video game project for free? I’ll tell you: extremely unlikely. The free art is the art that the artist wants to produce. Commissioned art that follows narrow requirements for (say) character designs, settings, etc. is completely different: it’s work because it’s not the kind of art the artist chose to make.
Your while argument about it still being work is basically what I was driving at, so thank you. You can perform work, without being paid for it.
I would disagree that such things are not scalable. In your mind maybe, since you seem to be hellbent on punishing those that do not contribute. If you're instead more caring and compassionate, and realize that many jobs are little more than make-work (where you're there simply to do thing that otherwise wouldn't be done, especially in a society without currency), then the actual workforce doesn't need to be nearly as large. A huge portion of labor is dedicated to accounting for and compensating others for their contributions. Think about it. Pretty much all accountants, tax adjusters, government jobs relating to dispensing funds for unemployment, retirement, disabilities, etc. A huge portion of the workforce isn't necessary in that context. Oversight to ensure things get finished is still needed, just to ensure that people stay organized working on larger projects, but nobody needs to worry about scheduling or working out how many hours + overtime you accrue. Most shops which currently warehouse and sell products, like grocery stores, all their cashier's and such, gone. Only direct service restaurants need anyone working there for customer interactions. A huge portion of the workforce would end up "unemployed" (with nothing to do), but retain all the benefits of having a job. Food, shelter, healthcare....
People would be free to educate themselves with college or university without the crippling debts associated with such endeavours. They could play to their strengths and do what they love doing, rather than what they're forced to do because they selected a major without fully understanding the job that they would be doing after graduation, and don't have enough money to go back and pick something they actually like doing.
As much as I don't agree with you, I understand what you're driving at. You're stuck on personal responsibility for your contributions, so that people don't freeload along with everyone else. I understand and I accept there will be freeloaders. I'm not angry about it, it's a fact. All I'm trying to express is that I believe that there will be enough able and willing people doing the job anyways, that we would be fine. Taking pride in their local communities, their achievements, the state/region/province in which they live, and the country they live in, to want to make it the best it can be. That motivation, IMO, is enough to keep things going.
Call me an idealistic fool. Think what you want of me. It's fine. I don't take offense. I know it won't happen so the entire argument is moot. The ruling elite class will their hundreds of billions in accumulated wealth won't allow anything to threaten their dominance over our day to day lives. Their ability to tell us where to go and what to do as a function of our "jobs" which are inexorably linked to our livelihoods and survival.
It won't happen, they won't let it.
I’m not hellbent on punishing people and I’m not lacking in compassion. I have a great deal of compassion for good people who are genuinely suffering and worse off through no fault of their own. I have been volunteering for 7 years as a tutor for newcomer families (mostly refugee families from Somalia).
These families are far from what I’d call free riders. They are tenacious and eager to contribute to society. They also happen to have a very strong community, unlike the neighbourhood I live in (more on that later).
The ruling elite aren’t the reason it won’t happen. The disappearance of local community is. I’m only 40 years old and yet I’ve noticed a DRAMATIC change in the neighbourhood where I grew up (and still live). When I was a kid everyone was kind and friendly. There were tons of other kids around like me.
Now there are hardly any kids around. I go for a walk and all I see are people my age or older, usually walking a dog with a scowl on their face. Society’s institutions are gone or moribund. Hardly anyone is friendly. Everyone is just looking out for themselves and treating their neighbours with cold suspicion.
This isn’t just my personal feelings or my weird neighbourhood. It’s everywhere and people are talking about it, if not always in the spotlight.
There are just so many people who are only in it for themselves and wealth has little to do with it. It’s the lack of community bonds. I would love to hear how a change in the political system could fix that but I won’t hold my breath for it to happen.
We're basically the same age. That's entertaining to me. I can't really explain why, it just is.
I want to strongly express that I do understand where you're coming from. I get it.
I still think that a non-monetary society would work. Again, it will not be tried, but I believe it would work.
At this point however, I believe that you understand me and I understand you, we simply disagree. That's fine, it's what makes society great and life worth living; our differences. It would be so boring if we all thought the same and had the same opinions.
I want to thank you for the discourse and echoes my gratitude for the civil discussion. I really do mean that, though, through text, it might seem like sarcasm, I promise that it is not.
I wish you the best and I hope you have a great and productive life ahead, good fortune, and good health. As I'm sure you know, at our age, health starts getting harder to maintain.
At the end of the day, despite our differences, I like you. You're articulate and well spoken and you've been a pleasure to have a conversation with. If you want to discuss anything further, feel free, or if you want to take this off of the public view, I believe I have my matrix account linked in my profile. I would welcome anything further you wish to say or discuss.
Be well.
Holy shit.
I had no idea who Peter Thiel was until a few weeks ago when I read Conspiracy: Peter Thiel, Hulk Hogan, Gawker, and the Anatomy of Intrigue. Never heard his name.
I find a new reason to dislike him more and more nearly every day since.
And between him and Elon, PayPal, too.
Once you start down the rabbit hole (not the white rabbit hole elon loves), you will find there are a lot of thumbtacks and lots of string that are all connected and ready to strangle the world.
I spent a few years on the bird site.. Did some things. Met some people. Learned some things. Shared some things.
The more you know.... Can be a curse.
Knowledge is power, but it's a heavy, heavy, heavy load we do not forget.
We will not forgive.
And, now, we return to the show:
eLon Hubbard, Jordan Petersinovich, Joe stRoganov
Petey and fElon (he seems to have found some hair in recent years)
The PayPal Mafia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal_Mafia
Not all, but a majority of labor people do is to make money. What reason do I have to work extra hard for if not for financial gain?
People like to contribute to society because it feels good. People will respond positively to you if you contribute, and you will feel good about yourself. and you will feel like you're part of something bigger, that you matter not just to yourself but to others too. Look at how much voluntary work is being done in society in all sorts of fields, this is being done for these reasons, not for money. You could argue, that this is mostly in certain fields, and most work would never be done for free. For instance a lot of volunteers are care-givers, and it's easy to see why this is very rewarding. But would people go into the mines to mine coal just to benefit society. Well no, in our society as it is certainly not.
But could it be that we're conditioned to think about our society in this way? In our society people get paid to do such things, it would feel very wrong to us, if people usually get paid for dirty work, that suddenly this would need to happen voluntarily. That would obviously be really unfair. But we could try to imagine what a world would be like without money. If you live in a community that functions like a sort of small anarchist communist society, and you've never heard of money or being paid for stuff, then it's not hard to imagine someone caring about the well being of his community and wanting to contribute for previously mentioned reasons: feeling good about contributing, having a certain status because of contributing. It's easy to see how people currently think, but it could very well be that people currently think a certain way because things currently are a certain way. And that if the world would be different, people would also think and behave different.
Surely in any case there will be a limit to the 'working extra hard', and it might be different from where the limit is for people in our current system. But that doesn't have to be a negative. Competing to gain as much money as you can often goes far beyond what seems healthy. Money is such an integral part of how our society functions that for many it's become a sort of obsession. When thinking of how you could live a successful life some people can only think: if I earn a lot of money, then I'll be successful. And obviously this is bollocks. You're free to define life success by whatever measures you deem important, but comparative study will show that the ones who earn most aren't always the ones that feel most happy and fulfilled. Focusing solely on money often just stems from an insecurity, if it's just money than I don't have to really think. It can feel comfortable to not have to think because this objective of earning as much as I can is predefined and I can try to optimize my performance based on that. I think a lot of people can see how that's a very lacking view on how to live, and it certainly won't be the most rewarding strategy for life if you want to feel happy and fulfilled.
I agree with most of what you are saying, but it just doesnt work as a system in our current cultural framework. There has to be an exchange of value added to money given, its not perfect but there just is not a way to do it better differently without discouraging going above and beyond.
True. But our current system fits our cultural framework, because it has shaped it to be the way it is. That in itself is no reason to stick with it. Not saying this can easily be changed. But we shouldn't lose sight of far away possibilities just because they seem far away. It's worth it striving for a better world.
I agree, I think we need to go back to a more small community groups where people with similar ideologies in similar places build up bonds. I have been trying but I think we are a bit too individualistic and those groups only tend to be family based.