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Disagree. YouTube recommends me a lot of videos about science, Linux, nerd stuff, certain kinds of politics... It's an entirely different feed for my wife with her interests matched. Also my 65 yo relatives read completely different news articles than the ones I read. Same with Instagram, TokTok and Telegram groups they're a member of. It's not a slightly more niche thing, it's a completely different perspective on the world and what's important.
10 years ago we all used to watch the same 8 'o clock news... It has completely changed.
And it's on an entire different level than 15 years ago when the choice was like 5 different newspapers with a slightly different political focus. You're right that echo chambers, tribalism and groups have always existed. But the internet did quite something and brought it to a whole next level. Mass media is close to dead and it's the recommendation algorithm of the tech companies who shape the perspectives of most of the people. Tailored to their filter bubble.
And with the 2 party system and the politicians not addressing the problems... I agree. I think that's one of the major problems. And the USA has pioneered being an echo chamber for the "western world". I'd agree that it happened way earlier and is more pronounced than in other parts of the world. And these aren't healthy or sustainable dynamics.
I would propose that the echo chamber has just diversified, changed, become maybe more atomized. But it hasn't really gone away. The other guy is right, the nightly news was a huge echo chamber. America was totally hyped for the Iraq war in a post 9/11 world, if you pulled that shit nowadays, you'd probably see a pretty diversified set of opinions due to the death of the monoculture. Whether or not that's good or bad, or is dissolving the social fabric and sense of a shared culture, is a different kind of conversation that I'd also have, but the echo chambers themselves, they've been around.
Hmm. I can relate more to that. I myself think these are two different (somwehat related) problems. However, with very different consequences...
One large echo chamber (or a handful) isn't good.
But replacing that with many indivudial echo chambers isn't good either.
Having a large one will do those mass dynamics. And it won't lead you towards truth or progress.
Individual echo chambers have the effect that people now can't find a factual basis to base their conversation on. People won't be able to handle dissent anymore or talk to other groups / generations. I suppose in the US you have two large groups who can't agree on anything anymore, dragging everyone down in the process. I think these issues are closely related. And from my perspective it looks like the situation hasn't been that bad before.
I think it's two seperate topics. Neither one is a good replacement for the other.
In the end the internet has the capability to connect people. To make lots of diverse information available to everyone. But it can also be used to spread misinformation and feed narrow perspectives to people. I think the internet is a great tool to get us towards enlightenment. The echo chambers and recommendations are two steps back, however.
Yeah, it's just pretty tough to get people wormed out of those short term benefit incentive structures, and it's also pretty hard to sort through an excessive overabundance of content. Like half the reason tiktok is so popular is because it doesn't require that you really do much to interact with the app, it just serves you automatically as long as you scroll and watch content. It's like a three button operation, basically. It's pretty hard to get consumers to not act outside of their own immediate instincts when that's what they've been programmed to do.
I also don't have the answer to that problem. I get that nobody can put in the effort to verify all information they get. Not even curate what they want to see and what to skip. And I get that you sometimes want convenience. But I think sometimes it comes at a high price. I'm really not okay that most of the platforms most of us use on a daily basis are owned and designed by a few large companies. That they exploit short time incentives as you said (and human psychology.) I don't think that's healthy or sustainable for the people or society. And it feels to me like we've been there. Before the Age of Enlightenment when other people guided us and our access to information. Difference is, back then the monarch forced people. Now it's not a monarch and they have more elaborate means and people follow willingly.
That's also why I'm here and not on Reddit or Facebook or TikTok. I'm aware that I can't escape being subject to my own small world and echo chambers. But at least this way I'm choosing them myself and not being fed that by Meta or Google. And I suppose it's a bit less confined because the Fediverse was designed with other goals in mind.
I mean I dunno, in some ways I think the fediverse might be worse, right? If I'm on reddit, then I have to intentionally go to r/the Donald or whatever, and manually block the shit from appearing on my page, if that were to happen (it probably won't unless I seek it out, but yeah). With the drivers, after choosing your instance, you just don't see, say, posts from hexbear or whatever. NSFW posts, whatever, whatever they decided to defederate with. So it kinda just seems like a continuation of the atomization, a continuation of the fracturing of the information landscape, the continuation of the death of the monoculture.
At the same time, Reddit also sucks. You really don't need a complicated system to create these perverse incentive structures, anyone who's used reddit could probably already tell you the relatively obvious set of disadvantages that are incurred by the platform, that lend themselves towards echo chambers. Downvoted posts don't float to the top, which means they aren't seen, certain users are given priority based on the historical consistency of their ability to get upvotes, and overall the platform is going to consistently cater towards the lowest combo dominator. Lemmy hasn't really solved any of those problems with the inherent structure, there, of like a "pure" democratic system online. It's only really solved, like, selecting for only privacy councious Linux tech bro libs on this instance, and then selecting for revolutionary cosplay commies on the other couple. And then Germans, also, somehow.
Even with that simple of a structure, it doesn't work. I could spell out similar problems with the way 4chan is structured, and that site is basically just like, first come first serve, as simple as it gets. To solve these problems, you have to introduce more complicated mechanisms, but to introduce more complicated regulatory mechanisms, you introduce probably more obfuscation and probably more centralization of power.
As far as I can tell, without majorly changing the economic structure of our society, and the set of behaviors and incentives that are created as a result of that structure, nothing on the Internet is really going to change. The user behavior is shaped by the environment, usually not the other way around, so much. I dunno, I'm kind of a boomer when it comes to this stuff specifically. It's nice to be able to not pay 50 bucks to get a manual for my car, though, so that's not nothing.
Hehe. You're right. Lemmy certainly isn't the pinnacle of communication platforms. I kind of have my hopes up for a worthy successor... The Piefed people seem to have some good ideas.
Ultimately there isn't a technical solution to everything. Could be very well the case that platforms, individual behaviour and society needs to change. In order to achieve change.
I like this threaded structure of conversation. And Lemmy is okay. It's not perfect but I occasionally enjoy spending some of my time here. I hope it's going to improve and the community might do, too. I'm not aware of any better alternative.
I don't think the Fediverse is "worse" than something else... It's a good idea and approach. But it's more complicated than just that.
And I'd also like more democracy on the internet. And the place being built for the people, not any advertisers or other stakeholders... Technically that should be possible. The Fediverse isn't there (yet) but I think it has some potential to go that direction. At least technologically.
An algorithm does nothing to stop your choice. I'd hazard I have very similar viewing habits and YT suggestions. I bust out of it regularly though. Because it just feeds me the same stuff constantly. You can do that any time. It's like the Jerryboree, you're always allowed to leave if you want. Implying algorithms are echo chambers. Is like asserting that the jerryborres are like Auschwitz. It's silly.
The 8 o'clock news was a much bigger echo chamber than YouTube or Instagram ever were. In fact you've literally described YouTube shattering a classic Echo chamber in your life and are lamenting it. How ironic. My parents watch a lot of YouTube these days too. Nothing I'd watch. But they watch together because of shared interests. If you want to share more with your wife/family etc. Put some effort into it. Find something you all like, and make a point to watch it together. No algorithm is stopping you.
Don't get me wrong. Algorithms can absolutely exacerbate and help create Echo chambers. But they aren't Echo Chambers themselves. You could choose to go on a Prager U watching binge on YouTube tomorrow. And soil your suggestions for months or years to come. You won't. But you could. The fact that the algorithm is feeding you stuff that it knows you'll engage with. You know, the sort of thing you'd be doing yourself without the algorithm helping you. Doesn't make it an echo chamber.
There are two types of echo chambers. Those created from lack of access to information. And those we create for ourselves. Algorithms need not apply.
Hmm, I'm not convinced. Sure it's not technically preventing me from accessing information. But come on, we all know 90% of people prefer the convenience and won't click through 5 pages to get to that specific innormation. They'll just scroll by and fall victim to it. The rest also does, albeit to a lesser degree.
And I've been on YouTube when it used to show exactly the subscription feeds... And that time is long gone. I'm subscribed to a few channels that are not "advertiser friendly". And they almost never show up anywhere. Once a month I maybe remember that I haven't seen a video in a while and I check out their channel manually and I've missed 2 videos... What else am I missing out on? How's that not filtering and shaping my perspective?
And the 8 o'clock news is kind of my point. That's an example of mass media. Everyone get's the same info. People can talk, they have the same info available. That's the opposite of different echo chambers. It won't be your uncle who got radicalized into thinking immigrants are the most pressing issues and you being radicalized to think gender equality is the most pressing issue in society. Of course that's not absolute, people have always had different interests and other sources available, too. And one big echo chamber has never been great either. Back in the day I learnt a lot less about China or other parts of the world than I do today.
I'm not sure if the current situation is good however. I get lots of oppinions about Putin and Israel and Palestine. And still almost zero about Africa or my neighbor countries. That bias is still there. So it also didn't solve that issue.
I wonder how people believe they're not part of the scheme. I mean, are you curating your content yourself? Putting in the hours of work each day to get the unbiased perspective? Do you read about all of the countries and different people that are beyond your perspective and interest and factor them in? Do you also read about the local news and the struggles of the youth center nextdoor that is about to get closed? If yes, I'd like to know how you do it, because I'd like to have that available, too. But I'm neither a journalist nor do I have all day to read background articles and write all the news myself... And if not - you're getting your perspective of the world delivered to you. Shaped by somebody else. If you're using YouTube's recommendations or Instagram or TikTok... That's done by an algorithm. If you're watching the news or reading a newspaper that's maybe by some journalists. But all of that is still a filter bubble. And if it's an algorithm it's designed to please you and keep you engaged and scrolling. The echo chamber so to say... If it's a journalist, they're technically supposed to be neutral. I guess that doesn't work in the US either, but there are still proper journalists around. It's not either, or... Both approaches have issues, some of them are different. But the things that are designed to foster individual echo chambers... are the recommendation algorithms.
(And I also wouldn't like to return to the old times... If that's not clear from my writing... I think that's not been great, either.)
The fact that you choose to eat ho-hos and ding dongs does not mean that you live in a food desert. But if you live in a food desert. You might not have anything better than Ho Hos and ding dongs to eat. And if the grocery store determines that they can boost their business by lining the front shelves with Ho Hos and ding dongs. And you come in but never go past those shelves to get to the health foods and produce behind. Is that the grocery stores fault or is it yours? This is all analogous.
We need to decide if we're talking about how bad a lot of these algorithms are or how bad Echo Chambers are. Believe me I think YouTube's algorithm sucks as far as seeing what I really want to see. It generally suggests okay things. But I do often have to go digging through my subscriptions to find even recent videos from people that I would rather see. Again that's not an echo chamber though.
The algorithm is simply putting generally tolerable mass-produced pablum to keep me watching forever in view. Not prioritizing what I really want. But I can still get to what I really want even if I have to walk past those first couple shelves. Honestly, anymore on YouTube I rush past the first few shelves and go directly to my subscription only feed. And look through that and go through and pick out the stuff that I want to watch. Then when I've seen everything I really want to watch. I might go to the suggestion feed and pull up something it has there. There's no one there telling me I can't or shouldn't do that or blocking my access.
I don't think you get what I'm trying to say. You don't need to block anything to shape someone's view of the world. Just tell them lies. Feed them one-sided info all day. Make opposing things inconvenient to access. No need to block or restrict anything, it'll work anyways. Sure, "theoretically" everyone can look it up. Or go to the library and read a book on history. "Theoretically" they could do. But "in theory" is not enough if it never happens.
You're bound to watch more if the stuff that's easily available to you. And less of the stuff that's unconvenient. Thus shaping the knowledge that gets accumulated in your brain.
And you seem to be under the impression that they're deliberately trying to influence your views. That's not the case. They just want you to keep watching. They don't mind if you consume leftist or alt-right content. But to achieve that, they're trying to recommend something to you you might like to watch. If you've watched Jordan Peterson all day, you'll get more of that because obviously you like it. Hence confining you more into your individual echo chamber. And that's not because they like Jordan Peterson... They just want to sell ads. And that's the way to do it.
And it's yet more perfiduous: If you want to exploit human psychology as a platform provider, you occasionaly also show your users content they don't like... That gives them the false impression that it's not just a small bubble. The illusion of choice. And it'll get you more... It's something that your users can get angry about or pick on. It'll raise emotions, get them even more engaged. And it'll be yet more profitable. And as it turns out it's a known fact that the big tech companies hire psychologists. And some more shady companies have been proven to make their products addictive by such means.
Again: They don't exactly want to impress any specific political view on you. It's just how they make more money. And the rest is an unintended side-effect. But it has these consequences, regardless.
That friend. Is framing. Not an echo chamber. Framing can amplify Echo Chambers absolutely. But it's not the same thing. It is something we all do to an extent and should be aware of. We all frame things in terms of what we know, or even how we wish they would be.
Most things in life especially in America have a heavy right-wing fash friendly framing. That's not arguable. Just a fact of the last 100 years. Which is why when most people realistically only had the 8:00 news it was such an Insidious and effective Echo chamber. They constantly echoed the same talking points. With the same fash friendly framing. We were the heroes delivering freedom against the godless communists etc. Was that ever really true? You might be able to make a specious argument or two. But it's not factual on the face of it. Note this is not a defense of ML/Stalinism/Maoism or tankies. They're as big a problem as capitalists realistically.
Florida, arguably an echo chamber by many metrics. They're trying to restricted peoples access to information and violate their first amendment rights. Twitter, absolutely an echo chamber. They're banning lefties at the drop of a hat temp/perm/shadow. Replatforming deservedly permabanned rightwing ghouls. With an egoist in a khole paying and promoting hate speech. YouTube, their algorithm sucks. But as much as I dislike that they allow propaganda etc like daily wire etc. They also allow propaganda like second thought which I also dislike. They certainly aren't perfect. But not the same thing.
That's right. I mean the point is you end up with an information stream that is framed to appease you. And I end up with info that is framed to appease me. Neither of us necessarily gets "the truth". (And it's a skewed perspective and self-reinforcing. Mind that I'm talking about the causality of the dynamics, not identity of certain terms.)
I agree with the perspective on America. I'm afraid we're here in some European countries could be headed in the same direction. At least that's what I think when I see our conservatist politicians invite scumbags like Ron DeSantis over. Or repeat their talking points. And the far-right is on the rise everywhere I look.
Our political system is vastly different however. The wider spectrum and the availability of more than two parties who actually get voted into parliament. Precedent of new parties forming every now and then and rising to like 20% over time. And occasionally they spend their days deciding useful stuff.
But we also have some of the same dynamics. People who wish it were the old times. Asking for simple truths. Wanting capitalism to solve everything. People making up their subjective reality instead of looking at objective facts.
I sometimes try to talk to random people who aren't part of my own echo chamber. And from my own experience, the vast majority seems to be nice and caring people. Everyone has their own struggles in life but they're open and liberal enough to grant the same freedom to their neighbours. But occasionally I meet one of the minority of idiots who think climate change and vaccines are a hoax, immigrants are the most important issue and giving equal opportunity to women is a mistake. And I'm always dumbfounded by that and not sure which world they're living in. I've traveled and saw the glaciers in Switzerland or what's left of them. I read the news and how Spain is struggling with serious droughts. Affecting the price of vegetables in my supermarket severely. And I can't get to work (properly) because the train system is beat-up after Germany has been stingy with investing money for decades. It's kind of whataboutism from my side, but I can't relate at all why we should focus on immigrants or more strict laws concerning gender, now. And I don't see how capitalism is going to solve any of that, because it's what ruined the train system in the first place. And we can look at the USA and see that this kind of capitalism also has negative effects on infrastructure, healthcare etc. Very severely in the case of healthcare for example. And I'm not a communist or tankie at all, I think that's even worse and will also take away our freedom. I think we already have the answer to that problem and it's social market economy. Maybe eco-social if you will. But we need individual freedom and some degree of capitalism. Just not without any limits. The solution is neither of the extremes. And we need to agree on facts and objective reality and base our decision on science and facts, not emotions and tribalism.
And that's kind of why I worry that the post-factual world is a huge problem for society. And we need to address it. I think the internet is the single best tool we ever had to enlighten us. But not everything in it is fine and dandy.
However, I don't think the political situation is caused by the internet or anything like that. It's waging there too, but politics is complicated. And some people just like autocracy more than democracy.