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(TW: Found on Reddit) Always Found The Similarities Between Some Feminists and Puritanians Interesting
(lemmy.world)
this post was submitted on 19 Apr 2024
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Hey, what's up with the tone my guy? Message me if you need to talk fr
Regarding the subject at hand,
Evidently women still have many issues coming from male dominant culture formed before the industrial revolution, there has been good progress but there's still a long path ahead.
Men have issues coming from cultural norms too. imo the biggest hindrance for men at the moment is not nearly enough people talk about men's mental health.
MOST IMPORTANT NOTE IS:
Promoting solutions for women doesn't mean ignoring men's issues.
Promoting awareness to men's issues is not against women's interests.
When someone is promoting progress, let's not jump to "there are bigger problems elsewhere"
If you want to promote change via debate, being aggressive is the worst strategy. Why not say "hey, I hear your argument for women, and on this note I'd also like to raise this other related subject about men's issues."
That's a win win conversation
It is, but there are a ton of people pushing for women's issues and other currently hot button social topics who are incredibly aggressive themselves, and pretending those people don't exist, or that it's okay when pointed at the non-marginalized group is a problem.
Let's not pretend that explicit misandry doesn't exist just because it frequently comes from people hiding behind the shield of championing women's rights. Let's not brush off misandry because men aren't marginalized.
Go to town about whether or not it's worse, but I find very often that people want to pretend it simply does not exist.
Most posts like the one you're responding to would get a lot of support if it were flipped to be a woman going off on a guy, but generally when things like thay are brought up you get decried for whataboutism.
Would you belive if I tell there are men problem even in "Male-dominant society"? In a male dominant society men are supposed to be dominant and they have pressures to do certain things. Also there are many cases in which women are given more previlages even in laws(atleast here), which makes no sense to distinguish people by sex in laws. You may argue its still due to male dominant culture we previously had but that is one of the men's problem too. Just reminding
How else am I supposed to react to a hyper simplification of the multifaceted problem that is men's issues?
Yes, that's true.
True.
Yes. That's why the most prominent men's rights activists are also women rights activists.
That's not what's happening here.
The problem is that they brought up men's rights issues in the most passive aggressive snarky way possible while hyper-generalizing and hypersimplifying it.
As a man, I'll confirm that we have issues, but, most of them are self imposed.
I could do without toxic masculinity, and the social rules that say we cannot empathize, cannot have emotion, we must eat raw meat and punch each other so we can pick up heavy things and smash even heavier things.
But, I don't know who you are crying victim to. Men set these rules for other men, and I can't really wrap my head around the concept of men asking men to stop taking away the rights of men.
You've miss interpreted my words.
Nobody is crying victim.
This is not about weather or not men's issues are self imposed. It's about the consistent oversimplification of the multifaceted problem that is men's issues.
That's not entirely true. There's plenty of other factors you're not taking into account. Fatherlessness, poverty, the lack of men's mental health infrastructure and funding, the chosen ignorance of domestic violence against men & boys, the hashtag #killallmen trending on Twitter back in May 2014, the sexualization of boys getting molested by women like some how that's supposed to normal, female SO's getting categorically lighter sentencing for the same crime, entrenched societal biases, the dismissal or trivialization of issues affecting men and so so much more. Then there's the intersection of men's issues with other marginalized identities, such as race, sexuality, and disability, creating additional complexities. Men's issues are multifaceted and go beyond simplistic narratives like "men hurt men" copout bs.
It's easy once you realize that the problem with the "gender war" is not women vs men, it's the poor vs the government + the rich.
Please consider watching :
Pt.1 & Pt.2 , I know they're long, but you'll have a much deeper understanding of my perspective.
If it's poor vs rich, why even mention gender?
I agree we are all getting fucked by the system. The results of that in my life are different than how it affects your life. The system screws men in a different way than it screws women. It screws black people different than white people. It screws this religion different than that religion.
It just sounds selfish to me when you acknowledge that the problem is bigger than "Men's issues". And although it's not quite as bad, it reminds me of All Lives Matter.
Cancer has MANY symptoms. When someone is complaining about how they lost both their legs to cancer, and you're like "But MY cancer occasionally makes me feel dizzy", yeah, it sucks that you have cancer, and I wish you didn't, but trying to equate your dizziness with amputation just makes you sound ignorant and desperate for attention.
By all means, let's cure the cancer for everyone, but until we can do that, we should triage, and treat the most severe symptoms before we start worrying about the occasional dizziness.
Because the gender war is a symptom of poor vs rich + government and is the entire topic of this thread.
Exactly the point. Continuing that line of thought. Do you think, a solution for one group is just going to magically work for another?
How is this at all related?
Again you're misinterpreting, using your cancer analogy, this is like :
P1 : "I have cancer and made huge strides to beat it, I know you have cancer too, use this and this and do this and this and take theses supplements & drugs, eat this diet, smile more, do this exercise, blah blah blah"
P2 : "We don't even have the same type of cancer, you have Rhabdomyoma, I have Leukemia, what you're suggesting doesn't work or isn't nearly as effective, cancer is way more complex than that."
P1 : "Fuck you then."
Again, Please consider watching :
Pt.1 & Pt.2 if you want a deeper understanding of my perspective.
If you're not going to read and respond to mine, I'm not going to bother watching yours.
Best wishes to you.
EDIT: Originally the only comment above was reposting the links to the videos. They added a comment after I complained about the lack of one.
I'm dyslexic and have reading OCD, it takes me longer to write and development my argument.
I read your comment the first time, and as per my OCD, I'll be reading it again.
I did read. Read again.
I went back and saw your edit.
Without going through your experiences, I can't fully understand how you have personally been punished for being a man.
My personal experiences have shown me that no matter how bad I've had it, every situation in my life would have been worse if I were a woman, gay, or had a darker complexion.
I hope that it gets better for you.
You want to know my personal experience?
There's so so much I could say. But I'm not comfortable with publicly trauma dumbing.
Without giving away too much, I will say that an event accord when I mearly 6, when I told, I was meet with scoffs of disgust, and called a lier, and the events continued for some time, years later, after I had already repressed it deep down and everyone forgot. My little sister comes out about a similar event that happened to her, and she was meet "omg!! That's horrible!! We need to take immediate action, you should've come to us about this sooner", note that we came out to the same people. More over, it likely wasn't even the first time it happened, it's just as far back as I can remember. That's all I'll disclose, if I think about it to much I'll trigger an episode.
I truly am sorry that happened to you.
Child abuse is a serious issue and you are right to be upset about how the people, who were supposed to stand up for you, completely betrayed you. I understand that to you, this is the most important injustice that has ever occurred. (For lack of a better phrasing) You've earned that perspective, and I will not tell you it's wrong.
The solution is advocating for victims of abuse, not reminding people that sometimes bad things happen to men.
That's not even what I'm trying to do, I'm just trying to make the point that it's NOT THAT SIMPLE , it wasn't simple for women, so why the fuck do people assume it's simple for men. It's not, it never will be, not for anyone who's not in a position of power or wealth. Ready or not, it doesn't matter. It took decades for women to build a movement capable of changing the system for them, it's no different for men, men's rights advocates have been fighting for men's mental health for a very long time already and we still see no chance in the system.
You'll hear a lot about "men made the system for men", and that's objectively and observably false, the Rich made the system for the Rich. Just because the 1% are men, doesn't mean that 70% of homeless individuals aren't also men. The Rich don't care who gets fucked, as long as it's not them.
I'd like to suggest once again, if you haven't already Pt.1 & Pt.2.
I don't think anyone is claiming that anything is simple.
These are global issues, and I think that by putting the focus on how they affect men, it really feels like YOU are simplifying it and discounting what non-men have gone through.
That may not be your intent, but that's how it sounds and why you are getting push back.
Everybody knows that everybody has problems.
I understand what you are saying and why. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm explaining why you aren't getting support from others.
May I remind you, I'm not the one who brought up men's issues in the first place. If Apytele left out :
We wouldn't be having this conversation at all.
I have no issue with the rest of the comment. That particular part is clearly not in support of men, it's not positive at all, putting the blame square on men's shoulders and oversimplifying the problem. If she wanted to promote Women's rights, that fine. If she intended to encourage men to join and fight for themselves this is not the way. That particular part is clearly made to create division, not unity.
I don't care if I have support from others or not. I'm already used to never having my voice heard or being rejected, it makes no difference.
Dawg you need to go talk to somebody cuz you're obviously traumatized from when you were 6 and you need some actual professional help from somebody who knows what the fuck they're doing and I don't mean that in a mean way.
Well yes. Unfortunately, the mens mental health industry is woefully underdeveloped and often not taken seriously. I'd go therapy if there was an option for me to do so, unfortunately there isn't any in my region, non trained to deal with my personal circumstance at least. For a time I was going to therapy by my own regard but then the therapist who I was seeing passed suddenly in a car accident and there's no one capable of replacing them.
There are online therapists now
I see, do you have any suggested resources?
This sounds over the top to me.
I see no problems with this part of the previous comment. It can be fine to live like a hermit or a fool on the hill. The Buddha gave up everything and didn't care what others said.
I don't think that the intention here has been rejecting or silencing you. There has been miscommunication and misperception, which is unfortunate but, it happens. If you step back for a moment, I think that you'll find that there are a lot of people about, especially on Lemmy, that would happily give you support, sympathy, and attempt understanding. You don't have to go it alone. A lot of us here actually want the same things and we're stronger together.
I appreciate you.
Then, I guess you don't need anything from me.
I really do hope you find solace. Best wishes.
Thank you for at least engaging. OP didn't even attempt that.
I think that @Rhynoplaz said it very well. I'm very sorry for what you went through and the betrayal by those who are supposed to protect you. I hope that you are able to continue healing.
As a fellow survivor of early childhood trauma, one of the ways that I deal with it is service to others. That is to say, taking what I've learned in my experiences in coping over the years and using them to help people who are going through similar experiences or experience marginalization either by advocating for them, lending an empathetic ear, or sharing what I've been through and have learned. I wasn't even aware until well into adulthood that my traumas (some that I don't remember due to young age) had had such a profound impact on my life. Choosing to leverage the painful traumas to constructive purposes that make other people happy gives me a sense of fulfillment and taking control over things that were very much out of my control as a young child.
Now, I'm not saying that this is the way for everyone or that your anger is wrong. It isn't and your anger is a healthy emotional response to your experience. Also, just as an emotion, it's absolutely ok and healthy to experience. There are no "bad" emotions, emotions are just part of our selves as humans and embracing them is embracing ourselves (I'm, admittedly still working on that). I might say that the direction that you are pointing your anger may be misplaced and that you may be perceiving an attack or slight where none appears to have been intended. But, again, please don't take that as me trying to invalidate how you feel as that is not at all my intention.
If you want to chat or would like some help in finding someone who is a professional to help you heal, please don't hesitate to reach out.
Thank you for sharing. I'm trying to be very careful in how I word all of this, because I've never been through what the two of you have, and I know I can never truly understand, but I am sympathetic to the severity of it.
Misread the commentor initially. Absolutely. Sympathy and empathy is how we build a better world.
Absolutely! I think that the sympathy and care that you expressed are very helpful and really want to commend you on reaching out with a supportive hand rather than matched aggression. I find that a lot of people who respond with displays of aggression are doing so because of their own internalized wounds forcing their way our in anger, rather than intentional malice (some people are just assholes, to be fair).
Keep rocking, you beautiful human being.
ETA: Other comment was deleted because I mistook who I was replying to because ADHD.
I understand that you're angry. Sure the initial comment was slightly snarky, and yes, a lot of frustration is caused by a large lack of willingness to address men's issues.
But I'd just like you to find out what you want to achieve with your commentary.
If your objective was to raise an argument and change someone's mind, then starting a conversation with
And
If you just wanted to express your anger, then I think it's unjustified to direct it so intensely to the initial comment. The intensity does not match the casual tone of the comment and it's uncalled for.
Maybe you just wanted to spend some idle time by commenting on posts. Sure that's fair, but considering the stress you put into this I'd say that's probably a net loss for your mood
Sorry if I misunderstood that. But your tone did not help with my understanding of your point
Sure I agree that the initial comment deserves some correction, but You will never get your point across by insulting someone. often to convince someone you should talk to them like they're your friend. I know the insults might come more naturally than friendship, but respect is what effectively causes change.
I'm just suggesting you use your energy and patience more efficiently
I enjoyed this conversation, and hope you did too. Cheers
You bring up good points, and you're right. I acted irrationally out of anger.
The insensitivity of the way she presented men's issues... Tbh, it hurt me and it came out as intense anger that clouded my judgement and muddied the point I was trying to get across.
In retrospect, I should've handled it better and voiced my frustration more clearly and (much) less offensively. Sorry I blew up like that.
Thank you for your understanding and consideration. You're quite kind hearted & empathetic, and have restored some of the little faith I have left in humanity. You keep on being you, you're wonderful.
Great to know that you can recognize your imperfections. I'm sure you have a good character. And i'm glad you're feeling better. Cheers!