this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2023

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What is inherently better about using GrapheneOS vs Other Privacy Focused ROMs? (lemm.ee)

submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

23 comments fedilink hide all child comments

I know that GrapheneOS has a lot of security features that make it basically impossible to compromise your phone. And that it has a lot of control over permissions and has some privacy features. But it also has a Google Services compatibility that would allow you to use Google services, which would allow Google to harvest a lot of data from you; much less data, but still some. Now OSes like CalyxOS or Lineage have microG which in addition to giving you the APIs, it uses less battery and has the ability to use Mozilla network location to stop google from getting that data. CalyxOS and Lineage don't have the crazy hardening modifications that GrapheneOS has, but Android is already crazy secure compared to something like Windows or Linux without a properly configured SELinux or AppArmor. Why have Graphene over Calyx?

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago

GrapheneOS has a lot of security features that make it basically impossible to compromise your phone

This is very dangerous thinking. No software is perfect; there are always ways to get in.

Now, in practice most people aren't victims of targetted attacks and even devices with dozens of known local privilege escalation and remote code execution exploits won't ever be attacked but those who will cannot rely on "x is basically impossible to compromise". It takes layers and maintenance to actually be somewhat secure.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Sandboxed Google play service is actually more secure than MicroG.

it also has a Google Services compatibility that would allow you to use Google services, which would allow Google to harvest a lot of data from you

So does MicroG. Actually that's kind of the point of both. Google play services exist to provide, well, Google play services like push notification which uses the Google servers. That's the case with Sandboxed Google play and GrapheneOS.

OSes like CalyxOS or Lineage have microG

Yes. Pre-installed. That's kind of a problem if you don't want to use them in a specific profile. Also it's quite a security issue since it needs signature spoofing to work which is insecure by definition.

has the ability to use Mozilla network location to stop google from getting that data

That alone doesn't stop Google from getting your location data. Only not giving the your location data does this. On GrapheneOS you do this by... not enabling the location permission for any Google services including the play services.

Also by default GrapheneOS already uses GrapheneOS servers for location data and you can set your own proxy in the location settings

That's basically everything about it. Yes, battery life is an issue on GrapheneOS with sandboxed Google play service, but well, at least it just has the permissions of a normal app. Not a privileged system app that pretends to be another app to work.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah but those are the issues that I have. The idea is to have a private phone where you don't have to worry about Google harvesting your data and keeping it forever. But when you have an OS that has all these features and then use the Google services that take all that data, what is the point?

Also it’s quite a security issue since it needs signature spoofing to work which is insecure by definition.

According to the last paragraph here, the spoofing at least in Calyx is limited to only microG. It's less secure than a sandboxed thing, but I don't think it's gonna be that bad.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah but those are the issues that I have. The idea is to have a private phone where you don't have to worry about Google harvesting your data and keeping it forever. But when you have an OS that has all these features and then use the Google services that take all that data, what is the point?

The point, is the part you're clearly missing. Google can't "harvest" anything from Graphene, its a regular non priviled app, that has no clue where you are. Aside from it not being installed by default, if you choose to install the sandboxxed play services, aside from being sandboxxed, the play services (or) Google apps can only have data you CHOSE to give them.

Thats a night and day difference between the normal situation. Also, microG is trash, have tiu used it long term? When tons of apps either dont work, crash for no reason, and paid apps are out. More and more apps are going to Googles license verification and then microG users are really screwed. Google is already screwing with YouTube clients, you think they couldn't end microG tomorrow if they wanted to?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's true that you can choose not to give Google the location data or any other thing for that matter, but wouldn't that hinder the functionality of the apps that need it? I believe there is no choice here, unless I'm missing something.

If you want to use something like Pokemon Go or whatever, your data is going to go to Google. Or if you use apps that use the Google notification servers, wouldn't Google be able to use that data (I don't know if they're able to actually read the notifications, I'm just assuming).

I'm not shilling for OEM ROMs or attacking anything, but I wanna feel actually justified in the hassle and potential downgrade of the digital experience when I move to another ROM.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No, thats the entire point of how its implemented, it uses what they call "shims" so that it can still allow everything to work without privileged access. I can't speak for Pokemon Go, as thats a very well know terrible app from a privacy standpoint and in doubt many Graphene users would ever consider running it, but I've yet to have an app that'd normally complain about a modified environment do so. My financial and banking apps all work, subscriptions work, etc. Worst I had to do with my Capital One app was disable the memory allocation tweak for it, which is a 2 sec permission change.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Sure the security is good and all but what about the privacy aspect? That's what I worry about. Like I said, I believe Android is secure enough as is, but the dependence on all the Google services is what makes it less private. Using Graphene sure does increase security, but it cannot do much in terms of being private.

It can reduce the amount of data that goes to Google. But if you use non-privacy-respecting apps, then you're SOL. My question is that, given all of the privacy issues that Graphene doesn't (and probably cannot) address, does it still make sense to install from a privacy standpoint?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

It isn't less private than MicroG and Sandboxed so Google gets even less data

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

but the dependence on all the Google services is what makes it less private.

No, not really. Again, Google only knows what you willingly tell them. Most of the privacy violations are from the Play Services themselves, not their apps. It doesn't have those teeth when sandboxed in Graphene. It's safe to assume that if a person installs Graphene, they're also smart enough to not use a gmail acct for it that links back to them, doesn't use email with it, and doesn't volunteer anything they wouldn't be OK with Google knowing in the end.

But if you use non-privacy-respecting apps, then you’re SOL.

And that would a stupid move by the person, not a failing of the OS. No OS on the planet can protect against a foolish user.

does it still make sense to install from a privacy standpoint?

If a person is going to intentionally install and use apps that sell as much data as possible, clearly not, but people that would do something like that are privacy clueless and also wouldn't be installing Graphene in the first place.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's the main thing. I can easily use another email provider with no issues, I can install another OS that respects my privacy. But what if my dumbfuck friends and family use something like snapchat, instagram, or facebook messenger to communicate? I tried to tell them to use signal before but they wouldn't listen. And I'm not about to stop messaging them anytime soon. And if I use those services, wouldn't those companies have a good profile on me? Making the effort to be more private pretty useless.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

Makes no difference what (their) messenger of choice is, If you send them an SMS, theyll get it. If they're also on Android, Google Messenger is E2EE when its using RCS and it'll also work with Samsung's.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You know what else gives your location data? Having a phone, period, via cell triangulation. You are tracked by default if you have a cell phone unless you turn everything off (airplane mode, for example, and some would argue that even that doesn't really completely work) which makes your phone essentially useless.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's why on Android, apps have to request the location permission to have access to Bluetooth, WiFi and cellular networks and their signal strengths. No app has that information unless you explicitly allow it

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

No, no, no. Not "apps". The phone itself. It sends out a cell signal to cell towers as part of its basic operation. And it triangulates your location from that. Information your phone data provider, your phone maker (Google/Apple), and possibly your phone manufacturer if different (Samsung, etc) can use, sell, and exploit as needed.

I have no idea how so many people do not realize this.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But that needs to be built in to it on a hardware level. Sure the cell towers know where you are though

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That is my point. It IS built in on a hardware level and the cell towers DO know where you are. Triangulation means you're not going to escape being tracked if you are using a cellphone. Plain and simple. If you own a cellphone and are using it, no matter how much you try to block location tracking via GPS and IP geolocation and other means, the cell towers are still going to know exactly where you are. Cellphones are inherently insecure. That was my point.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

In this case, faraday bag might be useful

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

As you said, proper google services instead of microG. It's been a bit since I used it, but it wasn't great back then.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

GrapheneOS itself is great, but the GrapheneOS community is toxic. Something to consider. If you want deGoogled Android without the drama, consider CalyxOS.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Honestly, I don't mind the drama. I just want answers to my specific questions about privacy without people mentioning security all the time. But thanks mate

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

https://blog.privacyguides.org/2022/04/21/grapheneos-or-calyxos/

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sandboxed Google Play provides better security, privacy and usability. Why that is, as well as your question about Calyx vs Graphene, is answered in this Privacy Guides Blogpost.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

It says that trusting Mozilla for the location backend is the same as trusting Google. I may be biased or something because I use Mozilla services but that's just insane to me. Mozilla's business model is not the same as Google's. Are there no network based location services for Graphene other tjan Google? GPS location sucks sometimes and I'd like to have a proper alternative if possible.