this post was submitted on 22 Dec 2023
687 points (98.9% liked)
Technology
59421 readers
3944 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Maintaining a vacuum over long distances is really fucking hard.
You'd be better served utilising existing rail infrastructure and improving that to make high speed trains possible.
Whole purposes of hyperloop was to derail any constructive debate on existing rail network. Pun intended. I’d say hyperloop was quite successful.
The role of government needs to be entirely about removing obstacles on private entities that try to create new (or old if that works better) methods of transportation. Not supporting or hindering anyone. If they let this fucking guy, or any other fucking guy talk them into anything, they're doing their job wrong. Even if Elon Musk is a persuasive person, this is almost entirely a failure of government.
Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Singapore, Hong Kong (before China at least) are good examples of how to handle all this well.
Small vaccum then. They managed to build a tunnel between France and England. Put people on the moon. Can do a lot
We do one thing. Must do other thing. Smart.
Why not just make a tunnel and forget the vacuum? It's just a subway system, but it's efficient
Edit: France & England might have dug a tunnel but Paris and London just have a subway. And train to move around the country.
Edit2: fixed wording
No it's literally a subway system. Putting trains in tunnels isn't something new or revolutionary, that's literally what subways are. And we've been doing it for over a hundred years.
People seem to be locked in on examples in the US of bad subways to mean subways inherently suck. But there are plenty of examples of perfectly working subways, which are highly efficient, comfortable and get you from A to B fast.
There are even places with subways that currently suck, but used to be very good. But car culture has meant rich people use their car and sit in gridlock, while the poor use the subway. This lead to a class difference and the richer class in power gutting funding for public transport. That is what makes it suck, not the principal of the thing.
Everything Elon says is new or revolutionary, usually isn't. The hyperloop (or vacuum train) concept isn't new either, I remember reading a book in the 80s where they had vacuum trains. And there are examples of the idea going back a hundred years or more. The hyperloop idea is so dumb, it can be debunked in a couple of minutes with some back of the envelope calculations. The power requirements alone would be huge. But hey slap some solar panels on that bad boy and it regenerates it's own power right, cause that's how anything works.
Well that's the boring company basically. Don't need hyperlooo for that.
The boring company is a scam. They don't do anything new or better and in many ways are much worse.
They took the costs of major tunnel projects, calculated the costs per meter of diameter, scaled it down to their max diameter and compared the two. Then they say OMG WE ARE SO MUCH BETTER! Well sure, because that's in no way a fair comparison to make at all. Let alone the fact that comparing budget to actual costs is a no go, it's not possible to just scale the costs.
If you want to make a small narrow tunnel, for example to connect two existing buildings on a existing manufacturing site with a small diameter to for example run some infrastructure and a servicing tunnel, you don't use a tunnel boring machine. You just get out a digger, dig a big hole, drive the digger down the hole, dig forward, brace, dig forward, brace etc. It doesn't cost much at all, doesn't require many people or special equipment and goes pretty fast.
If you want to make a big ass tunnel, for example for a road or a railroad, you might want to use a tunnel boring machine, but mostly traditional digging is preferred. We've gotten pretty good at creating tunnels using diggers and explody stuff and have been for thousands of years. When it's figured out a tunnel boring machine is actually the best option, you need a company with a lot of experience and equipment to get the job done. When you are at that point, money is mostly a non-issue and time becomes the main limitation. These projects take a long time and the public or company providing the funding needs it done, they don't mind paying if it's done as fast as possible. And experience is the key to getting huge projects like that done on time.
The costs come mostly from all the red tape, safety provisions and pure manhours getting it done. The costs of the machine is so much a non factor, there are times the machine is custom built for a project and a lot of it is left there because taking it out isn't worth it. Cutting on red tape isn't possible, regulations are regulations and they are strict for a reason. Cutting on safety is a Elon trademark, but in a lot of places you can't get away with that. And doing that within your own company is one thing, but if it's a job for a client, the client might not be inclined to agree to something like that. The manhours can be minimized with a super efficient setup and you can count on companies having done a lot of projects over the decades know how to do it as efficient as possible.
And on the safety point: The only tunnel the Boring Company has ever built would not be allowed to be open to the public in most places. And it actually isn't really open, you have to sign a waiver beforehand and only certain personal is allowed in the tunnel and only with their Tesla cars. It's only barely large enough for a car and would be considered way too small for an actual road. Real tunnels need stuff like emergency exits, guardrails and a walking space behind the guardrails to get to the emergency exits, a lot of safety infra, monitoring, ventilation, air inputs and outputs, fire safety etc. You can't even drive in their tunnel with regular cars, the fumes have nowhere to go. And the day one of their cars catches fire in that tunnel is a dark day indeed. I'm not sure the driver can even open the doors and for sure emergency services can't get to it. They've made a concrete hole and called it a tunnel, that's not what a tunnel is.
I'm not sure what the point of it is, it's probably an economic vessel of some kind to shift some money around. They haven't accepted any orders and have only done that shitty Vegas thing. They say they are going to do more in Vegas, but I'll believe that when I see it.