this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2023
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Yeah, but that difference is specifically rooted in sexism and misogyny. The very fact that we can all see the difference that isn't much of a difference shows that there's a divide that needs to be bridged. We only think women's nipples are inappropriate because we were taught to. Plenty of cultures around the world don't see breasts as inappropriate, and they're doing just fine.
Yeah, but you're not going to stop people (generally) from getting horny when looking at breasts no matter how much you educate them. So idk what your goal is.
It's hard-wired.
No, it's not. People at nude beaches or at nudist colonies aren't walking around with erections all day. African communities where women don't wear tops don't have guys jerking off whenever they get a chance. The sexualization of breasts in our culture is a product of our association with breasts as a purely sexual object, and the viewing of them as a purely sexual act. The way that stops being a thing is by allowing them to exist in non-sexual contexts, and teaching a new generation that they are just like any other body part.
If a girl nonchalantly takes off her top while going about her day today, it will be viewed as a sexual thing, because anyone who sees will have only seen such an act in sexual contexts. If, for several years, women all around the US are empowered to nonchalantly take off their tops whenever feel like it, it will become a common, non-sexualized act, because it will be associated more with everyday life than with what people do behind closed doors.
Just out of curiosity, total non sequitur here:
Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?
Your "non-sequitur" is trying insinuate that a person's innate sexual orientation toward certain genders mirrors an innate sexual response to certain body parts, which I don't disagree with. I find women beautiful, and in the right circumstances, I have a sexual response to that beauty. The difference lies between simple attraction and horniness.
I'm attracted to a beautiful woman wearing clothes that compliment her beauty. Do I immediately get a hard on? No. Do I become unable to function as a result of seeing her? No. Whatever reaction I have toward her beauty is my own circumstance to handle - she is under no obligation to change herself based on my reaction. I'm attracted to her, but seeing women wearing well-fitting clothes is a normal part of my day, so I don't find it overtly sexual. It can become sexual if the woman starts flirting with me, for example, but just wearing nice clothes doesn't make me horny, because most women wear nice clothes simply because they want to.
I see my wife topless all the time, and while I think she's beautiful, I don't get horny at every sight of her, nor should I. Most of the time she just doesn't want to deal with putting a shirt on - she's not trying to turn me on, and I'm not getting tuned on. This is a normal example a woman comfortable with being topless in a non-sexual situation, and a man, used to seeing that woman topless, not having a strong reaction to it. This is how all men, regardless of sexual orientation, would see breasts if women were as comfortable not wearing a shirt around men as my wife is around me. If my wife were to start teasing me and trying to turn me on, I would start getting horny, because that's the appropriate time for a person to have a sexual response to another person's body.
How would she even tease you if her naked body doesn't get you going?
By using her body sexually. Are you really so unfamiliar with seeing people naked that you think it's the nakedness itself that's supposed to be sexual? Have you never seen the difference between a woman taking off her bra because it's stuffy and a woman taking off her bra because she wants sex? There's "Yup, it's her naked body." and then there's "Hell yeah, her naked body!" You just go ravenous any time your SO is naked around you, ever?
A horny teenage boy is a prime target for abuse. You may think it’s cultural, but you may also be wrong. Hormones are a helluva drug.
A horny teenage boy better learn to keep his hands to himself. I don't give a shit what he feels compelled to do, and neither should any woman who happened to set him off.
You have a story in your head you’ve answered a question to. It has nothing to do with my comment.
As do you, insinuating hormones making people want to do things is reason enough to expect them to do it. Society relies upon people having the self control to not behave based solely on the way their body tells them to, and instead to behave as society deems appropriate. People want to take things, to hurt others when they feel hurt, and to have sex with people they're attracted to, but for us to live together, people need to have control over that. If they don't, they need to be taught, and if society deems something inappropriate that shouldn't be, we need to change society to allow for that act.
I was simply pointing out that my comment had nothing to do with sexual assault. The abuse I speak of is professional prostitutes now being given access to young children who don’t yet necessarily have the capacity for adult reasoning. There are lonely kids at home with free time whose parents have to work more than they should have to. Lonely people, never mind children, seek out comfort in both healthy and unhealthy ways. It depends on what’s available to them.
The child psychiatrist in my family portrays the current state of adolescent research very succinctly: The only effective way we’ve found to curb “unwanted” behavior in children is to limit exposure. Past a certain point, a routine forms and they are no longer predisposed to observed behaviors. In effect, people make their own choices. If you put good choices in front of them, they take them. If you put a mix, they take the good with the bad.
You put breasts on twitch, you’re going to have more people searching for breasts. Forcing a change isn’t going to fix the underlying societal structure that formed around nudity. You’re just going to mess up a lot of kids with your misdirected efforts.
Jesus, dude - my whole point is that exposed breasts shouldn't be equated to porn, and the fact that they are is only a stronger reason to allow them to be free right now, to undo that association as soon as possible. A woman choosing to go out to get her mail without a top on shouldn't be equated to a peep show. A woman choosing to play video games on twitch without a bra shouldn't be equated to a strip show. Yes, the current generation of kids will view it as porn, because they haven't seen it outside of porn, which they have already seen, no doubt. It was so easily accessible on the internet that I'd seen my fair share of it before I was out of elementary school in 2002, and it's only gotten even more prevalent. It's an issue, sure, but to let it be the reason not to allow something that shouldn't be equated to porn in the first place is ridiculous.
If breasts are allowed freely in public spaces, it won't be very long before they stop attracting horny boys any more than well-fitting clothing already does. Again, the effect that breasts currently have on boys is already too much - they shouldn't be making men salivate by simply being exposed - they're just breasts, and those in other cultures that have breasts exposed on a regular basis don't have that issue.
I’m all about changing opinions, if you have any data that supports breasts not being viewed sexually at puberty due to societal structure, I’m all ears.
It’s dangerous to let these massive corporations play scientist with society if you ask me. A better method is to reinforce it via parenting. You’re fighting an uphill battle when all of the policies enacted simply get parental controlled away.
On another note, humans are the only mammals with enlarged breast before any egg has been fertilized. We’ve evolved to show them off for some reason, and that points to deeper biological underpinnings than purely society. It is entirely possible that you won’t be able to free breast without unavoidable consequences that won’t improve.
It's possible, sure, but nobody's playing scientist. There are plenty of people around the world that allow exposed breasts and still function. There is no epidemic of sexual deviancy from exposed breasts in any of those societies. France can have nude beaches where woman are free to walk around topless and there aren't scores of men hiding in the bushes. You're acting like this is all hypothetical, but we already know what society looks like without a meaningless ban on exposed breasts - it just doesn't fit your narrative.
And another personal attack on “my narrative”. This statement reveals more about you than me.
You're saying we don't know what such a change will cause - that's called a narrative. Not a good or a bad thing - just the opinion you've chosen to defend. The bad thing is when the arguments you use to defend it don't hold up to scrutiny.
I’m not really arguing one way or the other yet. I’m leaning towards status quo with a safe transition as we learn the effects. I really don’t have a dog in this fight, I just don’t think rushing in is advised without more micro examples and observation.
I don't have a dog in the fight either, but what difference does that make? I'm a human with compassion for other humans - I care as much about their issues as I care about my own, and I don't want them to be tied down by prohibitions that don't make sense. A change can always be undone if found to be problematic; the apathy toward change is what really needs to be overcome.
Every generation looks at the next one and thinks it's weird and inferior - humans as a whole tend to believe their own experiences are the best, most logical way of doing things, which is something we need to keep in mind; the status quo is almost certainly not currently optimal, and we should be looking for ways to change it even as our own preferences nag at us to keep it the same.