this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2024
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Three possibilities come to mind:

Is there an evolutionary purpose?

Does it arise as a consequence of our mental activities, a sort of side effect of our thinking?

Is it given a priori (something we have to think in order to think at all)?

EDIT: Thanks for all the responses! Just one thing I saw come up a few times I'd like to address: a lot of people are asking 'Why assume this?' The answer is: it's purely rhetorical! That said, I'm happy with a well thought-out 'I dispute the premiss' answer.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (11 children)

Roger Penrose is pretty much the only dude looking into consciousness from the perspective of a physicist

He thinks consciousness has to do with "quantum bubble collapse" happening inside our brains at a very very tiny level.

That's the only way free will could exist.

If consciousness is anything else, then everything is predetermined.

Like, imagine dropping a million bouncy balls off the hoover dam. You'll never get the same results twice.

However, that's because you'll never get the same conditions twice.

If the conditions are exactly the same down to an atomic level... You'll get the same results every time

What would give humans free will would be the inherent randomness if the whole "quantum bubble collapse" was a fundamental part of consciousness.

That still wouldn't guarantee free will, but it would make it possible.

There's also the whole thing where what we think of as our consciousness isn't actually running the show. It's just a narrator that's summarizing everything up immediately after it happened. What's actually calling the shot is other parts of our brains, neurons in our gut, and what controls our hormones.

We don't know if that's not true either. But if it was, each person as a thing would have free will, it's just what we think of as that person does not have free will.

Sounds batshit crazy and impossible, until you read up on the studies on people who had their brains split in half at different stages of mental development.

There's a scary amount of shit we don't know about "us". And an even scarier amount we don't know about how much variation there is with all that

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (9 children)

Roger Penrose is pretty much the only dude looking into consciousness from the perspective of a physicist

I would recommend reading the philosophers Jocelyn Benoist and Francois-Igor Pris who argue very convincingly that both the "hard problem of consciousness" and the "measurement problem" stem from the same logical fallacies of conflating subjectivity (or sometimes called phenomenality) with contextuality, and that both disappear when you make this distinction, and so neither are actually problems for physics to solve but are caused by fallacious reasoning in some of our a priori assumptions about the properties of reality.

Benoist's book Toward a Contextual Realism and Pris' book Contextual Realism and Quantum Mechanics both cover this really well. They are based in late Wittgensteinian philosophy, so maybe reading Saul Kripke's Wittgenstein on Rules and Private Language is a good primer.

That’s the only way free will could exist...What would give humans free will would be the inherent randomness if the whole “quantum bubble collapse” was a fundamental part of consciousness.

Even if they discover quantum phenomena in the brain, all that would show is our brain is like a quantum computer. But nobody would argue quantum computers have free will, do they? People often like to conflate the determinism/free will debate with the debate over Laplacian determinism specifically, which should not be conflated, as randomness clearly has nothing to do with the question of free will.

If the state forced everyone into a job for life the moment they turned 18, but they chose that job using a quantum random number generator, would it be "free"? Obviously not. But we can also look at it in the reverse sense. If there was a God that knew every decision you were going to make, would that negate free will? Not necessarily. Just because something knows your decision ahead of time doesn't necessarily mean you did not make that decision yourself.

The determinism/free will debate is ultimately about whether or not human decisions are reducible to the laws of physics or not. Even if there is quantum phenomena in the brain that plays a real role in decision making, our decisions would still be reducible to the laws of physics and thus determined by them. Quantum mechanics is still deterministic in the nomological sense of the word, meaning, determinism according to the laws of physics. It is just not deterministic in the absolute Laplacian sense of the word that says you can predict the future with certainty if you knew all properties of all systems in the present.

If the conditions are exactly the same down to an atomic level… You’ll get the same results every time

I think a distinction should be made between Laplacian determinism and fatalism (not sure if there's a better word for the latter category). The difference here is that both claim there is only one future, but only the former claims the future is perfectly predictable from the states of things at present. So fatalism is less strict: even in quantum mechanics that is random, there is a single outcome that is "fated to be," but you could never predict it ahead of time.

Unless you ascribe to the Many Worlds Interpretation, I think you kind of have to accept a fatalistic position in regards to quantum mechanics, mainly due not to quantum mechanics itself but special relativity. In special relativity, different observers see time passing at different rates. You can thus build a time machine that can take you into the future just by traveling really fast, near the speed of light, then turning around and coming back home.

The only way for this to even be possible for there to be different reference frames that see time pass differently is if the future already, in some sense, pre-exists. This is sometimes known as the "block universe" which suggests that the future, present, and past are all equally "real" in some sense. For the future to be real, then, there has to be an outcome of each of the quantum random events already "decided" so to speak. Quantum mechanics is nomologically deterministic in the sense that it does describe nature as reducible to the laws of physics, but not deterministic in the Laplacian sense that you can predict the future with certainty knowing even in principle. It is more comparable to fatalism, that there is a single outcome fated to be (that is, again, unless you ascribe to MWI), but it's impossible to know ahead of time.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 4 months ago (8 children)

Even if they discover quantum phenomena in the brain

There 100% are...

Penrose thinks they're responsible for consciousness.

Because we also don't know what makes anesthesia stop consciousness. And anesthesia stops consciousness and stops the quantum process.

Now, the math isn't clean. I forget which way it leans, but I think it's that consciousness kicks out a little before the quantum action is fully inhibited?

It's been a minute, and this shit isn't simple.

Unless you ascribe to the Many Worlds Interpretation

This is incompatible with that.

It's the quantum wave function collapse that's important. There's no spinning out where multiple things happen, there is only one thing. After wave collapse, is when you look in the box and see if the cats dead.

In a sense it's the literal "observer effect" happening our head.

And that is probably what consciousness is.

It'll just take a while till we can prove it. And Penrose will probably be dead by then. But so was Einstein before Penrose proved most of his shit was true

That's how science works. Most won't know who Penrose is till he's dead.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago

Inception helped to bring the Penrose Stairs back into popularity and Penrose tiles are still a popular example of aperiodic tiling, so I suspect enough of the public has a connection to who he is.

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