Article for context:https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/12/23870522/iphone-15-pro-max-thread-smartphones (Ik that I am talking about multiple companies when I refer to android companies but many singular companies make more innovations in the phone space compared to apple)
I'm surprised that this whole "android vs apple" thing is still going on...
At least it's not Windows vs. Apple anymore
Wish it was. The Linux community shitting on Windows is worse.
why is that? it's not punching down when its a billion dollar company
edit: no coherent thoughts then? just mindless downvoting? well you've convinced me with that persuasive logic.
it's genuinely concerning to see the microsoft stockholm syndrome in the wild, but on lemmy it's honestly baffling.
I'll bite, I down voted you because I think you're missing the point of what the above commenters are talking about. It's not about whether it's punching down/up to criticize Microsoft.
Sometimes it just comes down to preference. I like Linux a lot for systems where I need the low overhead. But on my gaming PC, where I don't have to worry as much about overhead, I prefer the convenience of not having to learn SSH commands or open source workarounds.
Microsoft is like the rich guy with the nice pool. Its looks nice. But then you learn they got rich by cutting corners and screwing over your friends. And are actively investing in making the public pool shit so they can grandstand their pool.
Noone is blaming you for going up to the rich guys pool to have a nice easy time. Or at least, I'm not defending the kind of linux zealots who might blame you for choosing that
But I equally believe it is right and fair for us to have the freedom to state the very valid reasons why we are choosing not to go up there.
Still though, this is conflating Windows and Microsoft. This conversation started about Linux users shitting on Windows, not Microsoft. I think Windows is decent at providing a relatively low effort experience while I also agree that Microsoft is guilty of all the typical practices of corporate greed.
I don't buy Microsoft products anymore for that reason, but I still use them (if you catch my drift).
it's hardly a conflation, this hostile modus operandi is baked into the windows product itself with malicious and intrusive features. i'm not sure if this is news to anyone, but those user-hostile features were added to windows by microsoft. and the best defense offered thus far for that is basically "most or all tech giants do it too" - yes, thankyou that's exactly our point. the fact that shipping this kind of abusive software has been normalised is part of the problem too.
i agree in as much as not everything about windows is bad. and it can be useful sometimes out of necessity. though its worth remembering that necessity may often be the result of hostility on microsoft's part, either past or present. so it's not really possible to have an honest conversation about what windows is, without an awareness of how microsoft has maliciously managed our perception of desktop operating systems in general. happy to explain what i mean by this in more detail if anyone's interested.
and also agreed, i'd never pay for it.
The logic just doesn't follow. If we can't distinguish between the evil of a corporation and the use of its products/services then everyone here is going to burn for using electronics made by children in another country.
This wasn't my point at all. I'm simply stating that not everyone has the time and/or patience for Linux. I'm not a programmer. Most of the time that I do use Linux, it's a struggle with a worthwhile outcome.
Damn, it’s almost like you either have to find a morally unassailable position or accept that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism and all that sentiment carries with it.
lol That's a more succinct way to put it than what I could come up with, I like it
Be ye here warned: break that sucker out on libs and they recoil like demons from a cross, but it’s not a fetish in that regard and eventually you’ll find one who needs more exorcism than that meager phrase can provide.
As I mentioned, I'm not here to criticise you for making the choice you have, or defend those who do criticise you for it.
What I am here to defend is our freedom to state the very valid reasons why we are choosing to avoid it as much as possible.
Therefore, it's unclear to me exactly which stance you are taking in reference to what i said.
Our position is there are at least two core topics for why we choose not go there. They are 1. issues with the product and 2. issues with the company.
With the pool analogy the corner cutting and then further elucidation regarding the escalation of user-hostile features, are both specific criticisms with the windows software itself. Not the company.
Regarding issues with the company, as stated we are not listing reasons for condemning you for your choice but rather listing the reasons why we make our choice as we do.
Therefore, it is unclear exactly which position you are taking which is contrary to this? Everyone will have a different moral line for the myriad of issues when dealing with evil companies and their products/services. Do you wish to tell others where they choose to draw their own lines for their own lives are incorrect? I doubt that's really the stance you intended to make, so what do you mean, then?
Finally, I'm not sure how much of the history you're aware of, but microsoft's open hostility to linux devs & users is extensive and bitter. We have the case of a billion dollar company, actively trying to spoil & ruin the harmless pleasure many people take in a wonderful piece of technology.
This is almost entirely unlike any other "us vs them" technology debate. In nearly every other case, its wealthy corporation vs wealthy corporation with the users caught in the middle. In this case it is literally freedom of the people vs corporate profits. That freedom being actually incredibly important: its not only about the harmless enjoyment of the community. But also, considering the tech trajectory our society is on, very likely serving a critical role for actual human rights today and tomorrow.
As stated many times, you are welcome to your choice, and your choice is understandable. But it would really be alot healthier if people take the time to appreciate the breadth of the problem, and perhaps better appreciate why we make our choices the way we do.
OR considering that may involve more effort than you have time for - fair enough - at least appreciate this is a topic some of the people who clearly have looked into it, might know some things about it you haven't had time to learn yet.
No, and in fact it's the other way around. This is exactly the underlying position used to attack Windows users. I don't know how you can be so involved on the subject and not understand this.
It doesn't matter if you're personally guilty of this or not. Just look at the downvotes and verbal attack I received simply for stating that both operating systems have merit. This is the result of conflating Microsoft with Windows, that there's an innate feeling of moral superiority in the denouncement of Windows users because of the harm done by its creator.
My point is that these two things are distinct and need to be distinguished. Criticize Windows all you want. Criticize Microsoft all you want. But if you start to criticize Windows for its association with Microsoft, then communication starts to break down and people start getting blamed for something they don't even personally support because of a perceived moral high ground.
There is no moral high ground to be had over your every day user, because at the end of the day we're all participants of capitalistic evil no matter where we choose to draw our personal lines. That's what I meant.
In the first statement i made to you directly was the following:
From which I cannot fathom how you think I lack an appreciation that some people do blame others for such choices, or that I'm somehow having a conversation about those kinds of people...at all? Let alone their perceived moral high ground or lack thereof?
My entire thread has been about us having the freedom to express our reasons for avoiding it. If you're not contesting the legitimacy of that freedom, them why are you continually attempting to invalidate my position, at all?
Tbh I'm entirely unconvinced by your claim that any participation in "capitalistic evil" immediately invalidates all subsequent discernment of shades of evil or the complex interactions thereof.
But frankly its entirely irrelevant to this thread, unless you believe it supports a position that we do not have the freedom to voice our own reasons for our own choices?
But you're still grouping two distinct things together and feeding this monster that is 'guilty by association'. At this point you're either willfully ignoring my part about conflation or arguing just to argue. 🤷
Do you see how these statements are different? Because let me remind you:
You're dangerously close to implying that where others choose to draw their own lines is incorrect.
I'll defend them. Like pushing for vegan diets, solar energy, and the end of single use plastics. It's annoying, it's not fun but in the long run it's to make the world better for average people.
The ship has sailed there. Microsoft aren't going anywhere soon and in the long run they will continue to win.
There are plenty of good causes which I hypocritically agree with and don't put into practise, eating meat is bad for me and the planet but I'll still enjoy a steak without feeling like a villain believe it or not.
Blaming someone for choosing Microsoft is a dick move, Linux doesn't work for everyone (I.e. non tech people) so what should they (myself included) be doing instead in your opinion?
The whole system needs to fail before a company like Microsoft loses, if that happens great. But until then me want play new games, me not know Linux tech, me use bad guy company to enjoy me time. Most importantly, me don't feel bad for doing it.
Seriously though, I pick my battles and try to not be evil while doing so. Microsoft selling an extra copy of windows once every 10 or 15 years won't turn them into our all powerful overlords and it's the easiest way for me to enjoy my free time, and on balance I'm fine with that.
Your idea of making the world a better place is bullying people into submission? Something doesn't quite add up there. 🤔
Im mixed because on one hand, you dont want a "crazy lady in the attic". (we feed her and don't talk about her) to fix that you must be intolerant to the intolerant. (in this case, you want to be against intolerance for people who are running windows) Its uncomfortable because it feels like your attacking yourself.
Hey, we gotta poop somewhere!
Our Metabolism is just very performant. Must be running Linux :D
“Nah bro, trust me, once I finally compile my Gentoo build it’s gonna be waaaaaaay better than Windows.”
cue immediate crashing of Gentoo client
Should've used Arch, smh. /s
Should've used the new distro, Assembly Only Linux. /s
anything to get as far away from rustlang as possible! /s
some is warranted, some is not, both sides have a copium dealer, mine is down the street from me.