this post was submitted on 07 Feb 2024
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An abandoned mine in Finland is set to be transformed into a giant battery to store renewable energy during periods of excess production.

The Pyhäsalmi Mine, roughly 450 kilometres north of Helsinki, is Europe’s deepest zinc and copper mine and holds the potential to store up to 2 MW of energy within its 1,400-metre-deep shafts.

The disused mine will be fitted with a gravity battery, which uses excess energy from renewable sources like solar and wind in order to lift a heavy weight. During periods of low production, the weight is released and used to power a turbine as it drops.

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[–] [email protected] 137 points 10 months ago (11 children)

holds the potential to store up to 2 MW of energy

2nd paragraph and he's already lost me. It would be nice if tech columnists had the equivalent of even a single semester of high school physics.

[–] [email protected] 75 points 10 months ago (4 children)

I googled Pyhäsalmi Mine gravitricity "2 MW" and EVERY article covering this has also cited 2 MW.

Now, under Occam's Razor, what's more likely:

  1. Absolutely none of the article writers have any clue what the difference between a MW and a MWh is because none of them remember any physics
  2. Some of them could suspect that it's wrong, but an authoritative source of the claim wrote/said 2 MW capacity when they meant "2 MW peak generation" or "2 MWh storage" (I'd presume Gravitricity, but I'm struggling to find such a source, myself)
  3. One writer miswrote/misquoted as per 2, and everyone is mindlessly recycling that original article's contents with no attribution or care.

I don't know which one it is. But I'd generally lean against 1.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago (3 children)

#2 is certainly food for thought. So the idea is that from a journalistic fact-checking point of view, it is more important to convey the information exactly as it was presented than to verify its accuracy?

This would explain why science/engineering-based articles are so commonly inaccurate or missing in critical details. The journalist can fall back on saying "I have a recording of an interview with the expert after we downed a few pints at the pub, and I'm just parroting back what he said. Don't shoot the messenger!"

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

Just FYI, you need an escape backslant (\) preceeding the octothorpe (#) to not have your entire first paragraph bolded.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 10 months ago (1 children)

TIL that # is called an "octothorpe". Thank you kind stranger.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I'd honestly prefer raw parroting in most cases, even if it's "obviously" wrong. I don't want people selectively interpreting the facts as have been conveyed to them, unless they're prepared to do a proper peer review.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago

Or is all just LLMs summarising the same badly translated source.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago

Though btw, I also think it's fascinating the difference if you look up Pyhäsalmi Mine gravitricity "2 MW" vs Pyhäsalmi Mine gravitricity "2MW"

You'll get different articles entirely

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 10 months ago

How many horsepower is your car's gas tank?

[–] [email protected] 22 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Mistakes like this could be avoided if we just used joules for energy and watts for power.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Or just joules per second for power. Eliminate watts entirely. Dumbass unit

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago (6 children)

Well, Watts are just a different way to write Joules per second. The unit we should eliminate is {k,M}W.h which introduce a 3.6 factor in conversions to/from the regular unit system

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

My fave has gotta be kwh/yr/ft². I came across that while researching the lighting requirements for hydroponics.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago

It's the independent 🤷‍♂️

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

That's a miniscule amount compared to PSH facilities, whether it's 2 MW capacity or 2 MWh storage.

It's a cool concept but practically seems limited to niche applications due to the small capacity. Granted it is a prototype, but it also seems intuitive that pumping large amounts of water would be more efficient than moving solid blocks of heavy material for a gravity battery design.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 10 months ago (1 children)

My guess is that that number is simply completely wrong. Bo one would brag about a 2 MW generator or a 2 MWh grid storage.

The thing is, moving a rock up does not need a huge reservoir. You would only (more or less) need the vertical space

[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago

I was thinking that you would need increasingly beefy motors and cables/cranes as the size of the rocks scales. But for a reservoir, you could use the same pump over a longer period of time to store much more energy. It's also easy to utilize a body of water with a volume much greater than the volume of a vertical cylinder.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 42 points 10 months ago (1 children)

2MW of energy 🤦‍♂️

[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Just walked the distance of 1.8 km/h.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I just waited for 2 light-years at the doctor's office.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago

I did the kessel run in under 12 parsecs.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago (8 children)

This is one of those ideas that in hindsight seem so simple and obvious that it makes one wonder how nobody thought of it prior. Absolutely brilliant.

[–] [email protected] 40 points 10 months ago (4 children)

They have done this before, only instead of using a big weight, they use water. Lookup "Dinorwig Power Station" for a good example.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago

Banks Lake in the US has been doing it for quite awhile too.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (2 children)

That's similar but different in a lot of meaningful ways. Hydro pumping like that requires a relatively large body of water next to a large geographical height right nearby. This new system doesn't require any water, and it uses a man made hole in the ground that's already been created and which otherwise would be simply unused

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It's what we call a double whammy. Paid to remove the metals and then paid for the hole you've made.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago (6 children)

Sounds like a double win, not a double whammy

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago

Bonus, it starts fully charged since the weight is inserted at the apex of the battery instead of having to be lifted.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago

I read of another it was the same physics but different scenario. I think it was like excess energy moves heavy carts up a hill. When energy is needed, these carts get released and their potential energy from hill and the basic idea of regenerative breaking to repurpose it's kinetic energy.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 10 months ago (5 children)

2MW is a measure of power, not energy.

Time for something to free fall 1.4km is about 17s, so the minimum capacity is 34MJ or 9.4kWh in order to make their statements true. $1.50 in electricity.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The weight doesn't have to "free fall" for this to work. It could be a huge boulder that's lifted a few centimeters per hour. And then it can be dropped a few centimeters per hour when needed.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

Run the numbers.

How heavy a boulder? 10,000kg?

Potential energy is mass x height, so 10,000kg x 1,400m which is 14MJ of energy. Sounds like a lot, right?

One Joule is a watt flowing for a second and 1,000 watts flowing for 3,600 seconds is 1kWh. 3,600,000 Joules or 3.6MJ. So our 10 ton rock up a 1.4km shaft only stores 4kWhs? 60¢ of electricity?

Everything is linear here, so even having a 100 ton rock will only get us to half a EV battery.

Edit: if you're wondering where the other 90 cents went, this example won't produce two megawatts. It would only produce about 700 kilowatts.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago

It will be similar to a big pulley.

The weight will pull the turbine, the turbine will require a torque to generate current. This torque will act as an upwards force against gravity. This force will slow the fall of the weight significantly. The turbine 'consuming' the torque allows the weight to fall.

The higher the power output the faster it will fall. This will be adjustable. No power out = stationery. A small amount of power out, the descent speed will be tiny. A faster fall a higher power output.

This won't be designed to fall at full speed. It'll be designed for a long slow descent. The theoretical power will likely be much higher. It will be limited by the turbine and wiring capacity that's rated at 2MW.

If your calculations are correct it will be able to generate $1.50 a second. It will also consume power that is below market price/free/paid to consume when it 'charges'. It also provides the utility of stabilising the electrical grid against renewables. Increasing the capability of the grid to support more cheap renewable energy, without the lead time of nuclear or the pollution of biofuel.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (3 children)

How something be turning a huge ass generator (most likely) AND be in free fall...

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Very interesting, and good to hear.

Though, I'm not sure why they would drive a turbine to drive a generator, instead of just driving the generator directly. Their illustration doesn't show any turbines either.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Just guessing here but I think they are playing with gear ratios. A large turbine with high resistance being slowly turned by a heavy weight could generate power for an extended period of time.

EDIT: Maybe the shaft is the turbine. Like a big rotating corkscrew.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

And that's my confusion, why use a turbine (connected to a lift) to turn the heavy weight into a flow of steam or liquid, presumably to convert this flow to electricity using another turbine with a generator connected to it, instead of simply converting the heavy weight to electricity using a lift (or corkscrew) to turn the generator?

This is, of course, assuming that a turbine only is a turbine when it is driven by steam or liquid.

I guess the publishers of the article either got the definition wrong, or there's a less used definition of turbine which I am not aware of.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The turbine is the part that turns potential energy into rotational energy. The generator turns that rotation into electricity.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago (5 children)

But isn't the definition of a turbine "a type of machine through which liquid or gas flows and turns a special wheel with blades in order to produce power" with the "power" (aka. rotational energy) going to a generator?

Where does the liquid or gas come from? Isn't this battery supposed to lift heavy, solid objects?

It doesn't outright state that it uses solid weights, but their illustration looks more like they'd use a lift with sand or weights, and not a turbine with liquid or steam:

https://static.independent.co.uk/2023/01/17/10/mine%20gravity%20battery.png?quality=75&width=640&auto=webp

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Interesting. Earlier they were planning pumped storage there, with a claimed capacity of 530MWh https://yle.fi/a/3-12593341 Seems like that fell through https://www.epv.fi/en/project/a-pump-storage-station-for-pyhasalmi-mine/

Every source I can find says "2MW" of capacity. I assume they meant 2MWh, though that doesn't sound like that much.

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